View Poll Results: Was it unrealistic to think we should've won at least one Superbowl under Martz

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  • Realistic Expectations

    34 85.00%
  • Unrealistic Expectations

    6 15.00%
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  1. #16
    RealRam's Avatar
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Not sure if I'm missing something in the original post here or in the translation of the poll (my neurons function in Spanish ["perdón"]), but when I consider the 'unrealistic' Vs. 'realistic' expectations on winning those SBs, yes, I reiterate the Realistic.

    I'm simply going by the horsepower -- the Rampower, that is -- the awesome potential that our team had since it was put together in 99. To me, going into 2000 and 2001, it carried a HUGE expectation of performance and possibilities.

    And that, of course, entails having Coach MMM at the helm back then.
    Last edited by RealRam; -12-12-2007 at 10:41 PM. Reason: Content, typo


  2. #17
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    I find this debate rich with irony. Are we seriously indicting Martz on coaching a team so awesome that there was no excuse for not winning a championship?

  3. #18
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Some have missed the point. Or am I the obtuse one?

    This is about the tenure of Martz and not a specific game or instance.

    The whole package.

    I too sometimes cannot see the forest for the trees, but then I get out my chainsaw and make firewood.
    RnD

    GO RAMS!!

  4. #19
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsanddodgers View Post
    Some have missed the point. Or am I the obtuse one?

    This is about the tenure of Martz and not a specific game or instance.

    The whole package.

    I too sometimes cannot see the forest for the trees, but then I get out my chainsaw and make firewood.

    You guys are on target RamsandDodgers and RealRam. Some others have indeed missed the point.
    Last edited by Fortuninerhater; -12-12-2007 at 03:13 AM.

  5. #20
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I find this debate rich with irony. Are we seriously indicting Martz on coaching a team so awesome that there was no excuse for not winning a championship?

    You got it Fleece, I believe there was no excuse.

  6. #21
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Realistic...

    I was listed as a Naysayer due to my complaints of Martz taking a loaded team that was expected to win and running it into the ground.
    This space for rent...

  7. #22
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I believe you just can't admit you were in the same boat as everyone else who expected the Rams to win a Superbowl under Martz. Save your diplomatic explaination for someone naive enough to buy it. My apologies to you VegasRam.
    And you are free to believe whatever you like; one of the many beauties of this country. But the assessment does not rise above the assessor.

    Every year I HOPE we win the SB. Some years I think we MAY win the SB. However, I have NEVER expected to win a SB. And I have certainly never been closed-minded enough to indict (to steal a phrase from Goldenfleece) a Head Coach for the simple fact that he didn't win a Super Bowl.

    Anyone who has ever truly "expected" to win a Super Bowl has overestimated their team and underestimated the game itself. And by "expect", in this situation, the word is used as a line in the sand to judge Martz. As is used here, he is a failure because he didn't win a Super Bowl. And that failure is brought to light because some fans "expected" this team to win a Super Bowl.

    Now some fans didn't truly "expect" (as defined by a judgement of success or failure) the Rams to win. They certainly hoped to win, they probably even felt there was a good chance of a win. But they understand enough to know that defining the success or failure of a coach by the winning of a SB is not realistic.

    For those fans who sincerely "expected" the Rams to win; that is to say, anything short of a Lombardi trophy by Mike Martz is reason for dismissal....for those I have this question: What is your justification for truly "expecting" a Super Bowl win? What evidence do you bring to the table that allows for judgement of Martz tenure based on the win of a Super Bowl victory?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  8. #23
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I find this debate rich with irony. Are we seriously indicting Martz on coaching a team so awesome that there was no excuse for not winning a championship?
    Yes, you get it quite well, fleece. There are some who would indict Martz because THEY have judged the Rams as not capable of losing. The problem, of course, being that nobody told the other teams the Rams were omnipotent, incapable of losing.

    Well, since each of those seasons did end in loss, there has to be a scapegoat. Surely, whoever had the responsibility of telling the other teams to not show up should take the fall. But, alas, the popular choice is to drink the media's koolaid and blame Martz. Does he get credit for putting those teams together in the first place? Absolutely not. Does he take the blame because HE didn't win a Super Bowl? Well of course! What fool would think otherwise?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  9. #24
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Fortuninerhater

    How did you vote, my guess you voted realistic expectations. Because as you stated earlier he had the following players:

    Mike Martz had Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Orlando Pace, and Kurt Warner among others, all in their primes and what does he have to show for it. Nothing.

    Then he had Marc Bulger, Steven Jackson and company. Still nothing.
    Big O and Bruce where here for a long time and never won much… Torry was a rookie when we won it in 99 in Martz offense.

    Warner, what did he do in the NFL prior to being coached by Martz?
    Marc what did he do prior to being coached by Martz?
    SJ was just a rookie and played behind Marshal, he was a non-factor.

    How can you say you expected to win it all and then slam the guy who gave you such hope? Sure we all where and are disappointed we did not we another SB, but how can you not see that Martz had a positive impact on Warner, Marc, Torry and even Marshal and Bruce. Don’t forget the Colts traded Marshal, it was Martz that took him to the next level, spreading the field and getting him matched up with a LB. Take away Martz’s offense who knows if another coach and their play book would have taken these same guys to two super bowls and into the history books as” the greatest show on turf”.
    Last edited by Rambos; -12-12-2007 at 02:41 PM.

  10. #25
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    It isnt wrong to think that we were capable of winning 3 SB from 99-03. Those were my expectations. We still had the personnel and the genius who created the GSOT. That 99 SB was no fluke, and for three years we proved to the world that the only team that could beat us was ourselves.

  11. #26
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Guam
    It isnt wrong to think that we were capable of winning 3 SB from 99-03.
    Excellent point, Guam. Take a walk with me; we may wind up somewhere.

    You are right. It isn't wrong to think we're capable of winning X super bowls in at least X seasons. It doesn't have to be the GSOT years. Any time period will fit that sentence. Those might have been your expectations, but the real question that everyone is dancing around is quite different.

    In essence, the question is: There is no Lombardi in the trophy case from 2000 forward. Is that fact worthy of blame? And if so, does Martz bear that blame to the point of losing his job?

    And, to go one step further, why do other coaches not get fired for not winning 3 super bowls in 5 seasons?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  12. #27
    RamOfDenmark Guest

    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Now some fans didn't truly "expect" (as defined by a judgement of success or failure) the Rams to win. They certainly hoped to win, they probably even felt there was a good chance of a win. But they understand enough to know that defining the success or failure of a coach by the winning of a SB is not realistic.
    That pretty much sums up what I think. Even though I've voted 'realistic' the word 'expect' may be too strong to use for how I saw the situation. I certainly expected playoffs every year back then, and not making the playoffs would classify the season as a failure with the talent we had. But I wouldn't say I 'expected' a Superbowl win in the same sense that I expected being in the playoffs (i.e that the season was a failure if we didn't win it all) that would be ignoring all the uncontrollable variables that can send a team out of the playoffs. Winning the Superbowl was realistic but using the word 'expect' does make it sound a little too much like a sure thing - which it never is.

  13. #28
    yodachu Guest

    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Very realistic, the first year we were defending champs with a lot of the same players. Then, in 2k1 I was expecting us to blow the crap out of the Pats. So it was very realistic.

  14. #29
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    I still think its a "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY WORLD." What did or DIDN"T happen is an interesting point to discuss. Still what about today? Would the Rams still be the GSOT? If one thing is I am confident of is that the Ram's offense would be better off today. Granted, I would argue that still wouldn't be a winning record but certainly a better one then today.

    If the Rams had any kind of respectible defense after the SB win, surely there was an excellent chance to walk away with another SB victory. I recall K. Warner raking up lots of points, but the defense giving up lots of points. Yes Martz started working to improve the defense (too late); but never saw him as being a defensive genious coach and it took away from talent he would rather have had on offense.

    So what if Martz was still the HC? Not sure when or if the Rams would have been back to the SB, yet all I have to do is look at Detroit and how he is doing as OC. Last I looked the Lions look respectable for the most part. Perhaps with a respectable Defense, and a better offensive line the Lions might have walked away with the division championship--still its a marked improvement in Detroit

  15. #30
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    Re: unrealistic expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Fortuninerhater

    How did you vote, my guess you voted realistic expectations. Because as you stated earlier he had the following players:



    Big O and Bruce where here for a long time and never won much… Torry was a rookie when we won it in 99 in Martz offense.

    Warner, what did he do in the NFL prior to being coached by Martz?
    Marc what did he do prior to being coached by Martz?
    SJ was just a rookie and played behind Marshal, he was a non-factor.

    How can you say you expected to win it all and then slam the guy who gave you such hope? Sure we all where and are disappointed we did not we another SB, but how can you not see that Martz had a positive impact on Warner, Marc, Torry and even Marshal and Bruce. Don’t forget the Colts traded Marshal, it was Martz that took him to the next level, spreading the field and getting him matched up with a LB. Take away Martz’s offense who knows if another coach and their play book would have taken these same guys to two super bowls and into the history books as” the greatest show on turf”.


    Firstly, you don't have to guess about anything. All you have to do is read why I started the thread in the first place.


    Secondly, why are you asking me questions that everyone knows the answers to?


    And finally, because I believe he was the main reason why we didn't met those expectations.

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