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  1. #16
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    But I guess my response would be, if he's doing all the things you're describing, doesn't that have to be reflected in the numbers at some point?
    Those numbers are attached to an area of the field, not a player in particular. So does the RG bear the most influence on the particular stat for running to the right guard position? Probably so. However, since these numbers are linked not to a player, but to a part of the field, I just don't see it as cut-and-dry as other stats.

    However, again.......that week 17 incident may be too concerning to overlook at this point. Making all of this moot.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  2. #17
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Grecco should have taken over midseason we would have been much better off to seeing what we have next year. Goldberg setterstrom and Grecco should compete for that RG spot and we will be better off.

  3. #18
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    It would be interesting to know how they go about gathering their figures. But do you say that as a suggestion that perhaps their numbers aren't accurate?

    Because I would imagine that companies such as Elias or Stats Inc probably don't reach the level they're at if they aren't as accurate as possible. If the methods that these companies used to accumulate their stats was off or incorrect in some manner, I doubt they'd be as widely regarded.

    And I would probably agree with you that the sideline incident may be the most concerning thing of all, especially if Haslett ends up staying here.



    But I guess my response would be, if he's doing all the things you're describing, doesn't that have to be reflected in the numbers at some point? Again, while I agree that stats don't tell the whole story, I find it rather improbable that they're completely off base with these numbers.
    Nick, I'd love to have access to the information that those pay-per-view stat services provide. I'm sure they are accurate & valuable to journalists and team folks; they pay for 'em, after all, but ,like any stats, taking them in isolation is not the same as interpreting them in context ,right?

    How can you factor in a QB's lack of mobility, poor route running by rookie WRs, the lack of a TE as outlet receiver,etc, when a guard is beaten by a DT for a sack?

    I also have no idea what the range of sacks allowed by right guards is overall. I believe that our QBs were sacked about 40 times this season. In that context, is 6.5 that bad?

    Throwing Boudreau-who is being credited with a lot of the improvement of The Falcons O-line this year- under The Limpehan bus is another even more difficult to quantify unknown factor in his performance.

    On the other hand, regarding the coaching factor, I am disappointed that Haslett wasn't able to get him straightened out. And being regarded as the Rams best blocker by that staff & on that unit is the very definition of being damned by faint praise.

    Again, I can't emphasize enough that I think Cogs was a huge disappointment in every way and should be hanging by a thread for all the other reasons we have heard .

    The penalties may be the last burden that snaps that thread. If he has got such a bad rep with the officials that he can't get away with the stuff many other linemen get away with & worse, he has become a liability that far outweighs any potential,imo.

  4. #19
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I'm torn.
    Funny...you don't look like him!


    Oh...and regarding Cogs....can his dumb ass. The guy is a head case. We need smart and mature lineman. This guy cares more about his tats than protecting his quarterback. I truly believe Haslett slapping that candy bar out of Cogs hand when he claimed he was sick is one of the reasons many of the players support keeping Haslett as head coach. Many of the players are tired of the slackers on this team, and Haslett appears willing and able to take them on.
    Last edited by bigredman; -01-05-2009 at 07:48 PM.
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  5. #20
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    I say tender him an offer that gets him to training camp next year. And then we'll let the HC (Jim Haslett: please refer to impending new thread) deal with him how he sees fit. -- RAMarkable
    Ditto. I too support the Cog -- to a certain extent. I believe he has matured and would be more controled for 2009 as well as an improved OL. I don't think he would fake anything and I believe he is realizing how much his attitude affects the team, one way or the other,

    As an objective (subjective objective), I hope that, a) the main improvement for RI will be his mentality, beginning with b) a self and sincere assessment. Then c) a commitment to conquer himself.

    He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city. -- Prov. 16:32

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    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    Ditto. I too support the Cog -- to a certain extent. I believe he has matured and would be more controled for 2009 as well as an improved OL. I don't think he would fake anything and I believe he is realizing how much his attitude affects the team, one way or the other,

    As an objective (subjective objective), I hope that, a) the main improvement for RI will be his mentality, beginning with b) a self and sincere assessment. Then c) a commitment to conquer himself.
    since L. Ron Hubbard is dead, I have to assume you have some insider info that either Tony Robbins or The Dalai Lama are about to be interviewed by Billy D.

  7. #22
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Certainly the stats can be questioned, but the line looked very effective and in sync while Incognito was eating a candy bar on the sideline. I really like the guy but he's wasting his potential and from what I saw during the season, he got beat badly one-on-one on more than a few occasions, much to the chagrin of Marc Bulger who I'm guessing won't be singing his praises any time soon.

    I'd love to see Incognito get his head straight, but I just don't see it happening at this point. He's a liability IMO.

  8. #23
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    One thing I'm looking forward to is trying to find the best right guard in camp next year. Will it be Greco? Barron?

    I have NEVER liked Cogs due to his stupidity. I hope he doesn't come back next year honestly. He almost cost us a game. He talks bad about opposing teams, who end up shutting his mouth when the blow past him or beat him in any contest. It's not worth it.
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    Devaney, if you care about this team... fire the offensive coordinator!!!!

  9. #24
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    It's tough to say what the deal is here. I'd tend to rely on the grades of the coaching staff and the opinion of the runningback over whatever any particular statistician says, except there's no real way to tell whether quotes from the team are completely honest. There also could be mitigating circumstances. For example, maybe it's the backside pursuit that we're not stopping when we run to the right. Maybe it's because we rushed toward right guard on short yardage downs, which brought the average down. Or perhaps we're near the bottom in numerous statistical categories and those two just happen to be the ones where we're 32 instead of 31. Who knows?

  10. #25
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    I think Billy keeps Richie on for now and then allows 2009 coach to send a message by releasing him. The new coach would win a lot of support from the fans and establish some respect of the team.

  11. #26
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    What am I missing about Richie Incognito?
    Adam Timmerman





  12. #27
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Since L. Ron Hubbard is dead, I have to assume you have some insider info that either Tony Robbins or The Dalai Lama are about to be interviewed by Billy D.

    No, no AeO, you don't understand. It's Tony Robbins that is going to interview The Cog!

  13. #28
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Incognito has something the Rams do need--ATTITUDE. Problem is he isn't as productive in the running game.

    Perhaps move him from offense to defense

    But maybe the Rams can re-abilitate him into a good lineman.

    As to Barron he has been a bust since the Rams brough him on board and its been too long in coming to part ways with him.

    Pace as a person and a player has been a great return on its investment and it would be a sad day that Pace nolonger is on the team, but time and injury have caught up with him. Its time for the Rams to think of a team without him

  14. #29
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Interesting info Nick, thats about as close as you get to stats on lineman. Unfortunately the only way to truly evaluate a lineman's play is to hit the tapes and breakdown each of his plays. I don't have Tivo or the Ram's game tapes, so I'm out of the running . Fortunately Billy D and the player personal department does. I once again have to put my trust in Billy and our new coach to put the best players on the field. I've been behind Richie, but he really needs to start stepping up or moving along. A lot of fans boo him for his attitude towards the fans and media, but i'll judge the players based on their performance. And as of right now I'm judging the entire line pretty harsh, from Pace to Barron. The fact is that unit stinks, and we need either new players, new attitude, or new schemes.

  15. #30
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: What am I missing about Richie Incognito?

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Those numbers are attached to an area of the field, not a player in particular.
    But let's be honest, it's an area of the field predominantly manned by an individual player, no? Incognito missed one full game this season - the final one where our running offense was very productive - and then missed the second halves of the Rams' Week 11 and 13 games. Other than that, he was manning that area of the field all year for the Rams.

    It'd be a different story if Incognito had missed, say, 5-6 games and we had other guys in there. But he essentially missed only two games worth of time - one full game and two halves. And in the one full game he missed, we were very successful running the ball. So it's not as if he was playing well and then someone else came in and stunk it up to lower our average. He was playing in that area for the vast majority of the time for the Rams, and the Rams ranked last when running behind that area.

    Maybe it's not as cut-and-dry a stat as touchdowns or interceptions or penalties, but when you have a guy at a position for basically the entire year and our team ranks last running in that area, I think it's pretty reasonable to view it as primarily a reflection on that player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Nick, I'd love to have access to the information that those pay-per-view stat services provide.
    Stats Inc is not a pay service. You can find it here. I believe the NFL stats accumulated on ESPN's website are from Elias, though the more specific breakdowns such as the ones mentioned in the blog I talked about are probably for journalists only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    I'm sure they are accurate & valuable to journalists and team folks; they pay for 'em, after all, but ,like any stats, taking them in isolation is not the same as interpreting them in context ,right?
    Sure, which is why I've always said stats don't tell the whole picture. But they do tell at least part of it, right? What kind of context makes it okay to commit 11 penalties, allow 6.5 sacks, and have your team finish worst in the league when running behind you? Is there a context out there that excuses Richie from these things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    I also have no idea what the range of sacks allowed by right guards is overall. I believe that our QBs were sacked about 40 times this season. In that context, is 6.5 that bad?
    To compare, 6.5 sacks allowed is second worst on our entire team. But here are some other right guards in the NFC that have started 10+ games so you can compare...

    Code:
    Team  Name              Starts    Penalties    Sacks
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    PHI   Max Jean-Gilles       10            2      0.5 
    ATL   Harvey Dahl           16            5        1
    TB    Davin Joseph          12            4        1
    NYG   Chris Snee            16            3        1
    ARI   Deuce Lutui           16            9        2
    NO    Jahri Evans           16            5        2
    CHI   Roberto Garza         16            4      2.5
    DET   Stephen Peterman      14            1        4 
    WAS   Randy Thomas          16            1        4
    DAL   Leonard Davis         16            6      4.5
    STL   Richie Incognito      15           11      6.5
    MIN   Anthony Herrera       16            2      7.5
    So to summarize, of the NFC starting right guards listed, Richie ranks dead last in penalties and second to last in sacks allowed.

    And again, according to Elias, the Rams rank dead last in the entire league when running behind the RG, which has primarily been Richie all year.

    Which brings me back to my question. At some point, if he's actually playing well or is our best lineman as Haslett said a while back, don't the numbers at some point have to reflect that in some way? Except they don't - he's statistically one of the worst linemen in penalties, sacks allowed, and now apparently runs directed to his spot of the field.

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