Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater
This is an outstanding post- and the best possible argument if you want to weigh the merits of keeping vs. firing Williams.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater
This is an outstanding post- and the best possible argument if you want to weigh the merits of keeping vs. firing Williams.
Yep. This does indeed make sense.Quote:
I believe that as long as Greg Williams is running our defense, we will be under an inordinate amount of scrutiny. Fair or not.
God forbid anybody gets hurt and has to leave the game following direct contact from one of our defensive players.
Everybody in a Rams uniform will be under a microscope, and that alone may adversely affect how we play defense. We may become the softest defense in the league for trying to difuse the overall perception of Greg Williams.
Or conversely, we may become the most penalized for what may be borderline to legitimate hits. Either way, it's bad for us.
So to that end, it may be better to cut ties before this thing begins. -- Fortuninerhater
:ram:
This for me is the most pertinent reason to get rid of Williams, Iam still yet to see clear evidence ( not hearsay) that 'Williams paid players to injure opponents' as opposed to 'Williams paid players for big entirely legal hits' that (may have) resulted in injury'. The former is dirty, the latter is murky and apparently a common enough NFL practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater
For the record I voted to wait and see what direction the league were going to go with the information they had. I've pointed out my reservations regarding summary dismissal and my concerns regarding the form that the 'Performance for payment' regime assumed and don't need to do so again but I have a concern that this is spiralling on Williams and the Rams and whether he deserves to or not, he might have to gp.
i like the bounty idea and we do play the cheatriots....
I think we wait to see what the league does before we do anything. I agree with everyone who has said that everybody is overreacting. I believe after the dust settles Williams will have learned his lesson and there's no way fisher is going to let him implement the bounty program with this franchise.
Hopefully for the Rams, Goodell doesnt come down to harsh on Williams and I dont really see any hard evidence so far its all hearsay, I know he admitted to running the bounty program but i dont think he'll ever admit to rewarding players for hurting opposing players.
PeoriaRam you are overreacting the most take a chill pill, Let the league do its investigation and we'll see what happens.
No, the people who are overreacting are the Pollyannas who ignore the important and critical differences between this and other theoretical bounty systems; this actually does involve violations of the salary cap and exposes the league to interference from gambling interests if not met with a very large hammer.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamSoup
Fisher's also been accused of running bounty programs on the Hearsay level and generally pushing the limits of what was permissible in the league BEFORE the safety crackdown. I'm thinking a lot of people are overestimating Williams' intelligence and astuteness as well. (Violating multiple league rules with the aid of a guy convicted of stealing from the league. That kind of brazen stupidity can't be fixed.)Quote:
I believe after the dust settles Williams will have learned his lesson and there's no way fisher is going to let him implement the bounty program with this franchise.
Somebody hasn't been paying attention to the NFL's efforts at player discipline the last few years, have they. PROTIP: Pollyannas are going to be quite disappointed.Quote:
Hopefully for the Rams, Goodell doesnt come down to harsh on Williams
The league investigation report included 18,000 documents; a total of 50,000 pages long. That's an awful lot of hearsay, wouldn't you say?Quote:
and I dont really see any hard evidence so far its all hearsay
Saying you knew it was wrong while doing it is kind of a smoking gun of admission there, but so is admitting you ran the system when the league presents evidence that payments were given for injuries. Including payments from outsiders.Quote:
I know he admitted to running the bounty program but i dont think he'll ever admit to rewarding players for hurting opposing players.
The investigation into the Saints is concluded and rather damning. Now they're going to dig into Williams' Washington and Buffalo tenures. Let's just fire him now while we still have some time to rejigger the draft board.Quote:
PeoriaRam you are overreacting the most take a chill pill, Let the league do its investigation and we'll see what happens.
Pollyana? I have no idea what that might be but I'm assuming its not a term of flattery.
I was unaware that the NFL had published its investigative report or its findings but I am aware that there are several players around the league who are have made some rather general statements regarding 'performance related pay', 'bounty systems' and other such terms and that rewards are alleged to have been given for hits that may or may not have been legal and may or may not have resulted in injury.
Let me make myself clear here, I do not condone or endorse any form of incentive scheme that aims to injure players and end their careers but neither do I condone or endorse a mad rush the to judgement before I know everything I need to know to make a recommendation to pull the trigger.
So, as with 23 other 'Pollyanna's', I went with the third option.
Name-calling because of disagreement strikes me as the very height of intemperate stupidity.
I think you're missing some info. Payton apparently received emails from this agent about the incentive system & how much he was/wanted to contribute. This makes plausible deniability pretty tough. If this agent offered a bounty for taking out a particular player....remember who this guy is & what he was involved with in the college scandal .Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1
Even if he's not directly implicated, it happened on Peyton's watch, fer cryin' out loud. How can you possibly say he's not in a rocky position? Maybe he distances himself sufficiently, maybe not, & it's not at all a stretch to see the PR advantage you could gain by using the choirboy-repped Spags who's already in house if you felt a public purge was needed to show you'd really learned the error of your ways.
Benson reportedly claims he ordered Loomis to stop the payoff scheme & Loomis didn't. How is that not throwing your lieutenant to the wolves & covering your own butt ? And all the more reason to wonder whether Payton & Loomis won't be thrown out with the bathwater by Benson. No idea why you have such a high opinion of Benson or any other NFL owner; these guys will do whatever is necessary to protect their product.
Gimme a break on Fisher's unsullied rep. His players and coaches have been talked about as walking the line between what is fair/legal and dirty for years. Whichever side you're on, you can't deny the debate exists. Dungy thinks there was a Titan bounty on Peyton. Not,iirc, during Williams' tenure as DC but certainly in Fisher's time. Do you think he's prone to character assassination and wild conjecture, too ? What's more likely; that Williams used this system at ALLthe teams he coached for more than a year( 3 out of 4 so far are alleged) or that The Titans were the exception ?
Spare me the BS schoolyard code stuff about those players who have now come forward.And I seriously doubt that the NFL is likely to have been bamboozled by some malicious gossip,anyway. It's despicable that players stayed quiet but it's not at all the same as participating in it either as a coach or player.Nor does the timelag necessarily undermine the truth of what they assert; it's not hard to understand the pressure they were under to cooperate.
Just because no one explicitly ever said "sweep the leg & I'll give you a c-note" doesn't mean they weren't clearly encouraging exactly that kind of excessive force, legally or illegally applied, by paying extra when an injury resulted. Don't tell me that's an acceptable part of football. It would be a crime in the "real world" & I believe it is here as well.
I'm actually surprised that the NFL went after this so publicly. Given how zealously they guard their rep, it indicates to me that there is some very serious stuff here;this is not about 'tipping' guys for INTs or whatever; that's naughty but surely could have been handled internally. Anything could happen to those involved, including termination, lawsuits. Maybe even jail if this agent or anyone else paid to have a particular player targeted for a particular game or was even simply made privy to such information. Millions are gambled on the NFL & that kind of influence/info would be both very valuable & highly illegal.
Here's to hoping that Fisher is a true friend and not like you guys, again as stated before this practice has been going on for ages (whether you agree with it or not). If the cheatriots didn't get racked over the coals for all of their trespasses,then I see no reason for Williams to.
I think you're missing some info. Payton apparently received emails from this agent about the incentive system & how much he was/wanted to contribute. This makes plausible deniability pretty tough. If this agent offered a bounty for taking out a particular player....remember who this guy is & what he was involved with in the college scandal .Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1
Even if he's not directly implicated, it happened on Peyton's watch, fer cryin' out loud. How can you possibly say he's not in a rocky position? Maybe he distances himself sufficiently, maybe not, & it's not at all a stretch to see the PR advantage you could gain by using the choirboy-repped Spags who's already in house if you felt a public purge was needed to show you'd really learned the error of your ways.
Benson reportedly claims he ordered Loomis to stop the payoff scheme & Loomis didn't. How is that not throwing your lieutenant to the wolves & covering your own butt ? And all the more reason to wonder whether Payton & Loomis won't be thrown out with the bathwater by Benson. No idea why you have such a high opinion of Benson or any other NFL owner; these guys will do whatever is necessary to protect their product.
Gimme a break on Fisher's unsullied rep. His players and coaches have been talked about as walking the line between what is fair/legal and dirty for years. Whichever side you're on, you can't deny the debate exists. Dungy thinks there was a Titan bounty on Peyton. Not,iirc, during Williams' tenure as DC but certainly in Fisher's time. Do you think he's prone to character assassination and wild conjecture, too ? What's more likely; that Williams used this system at ALLthe teams he coached for more than a year( 3 out of 4 so far are alleged) or that The Titans were the exception ?
Gimme a double break that it's outrageous to wonder what Fisher knew about Williams' methods. He just hired him as his DC & they are, by their own admission, close friends.At the least, you have to concede thatit's likely he knew about the bonus system if not the injury thing. Why would williams keep such an effective & apparently commonplace coaching tool a secret? And Fisher is also extremely well-connected in the NFL. You think it's a huge leap to think he might have heard about this investigation before he hired Williams. And Fish got him to come to a rebuilding project from from an elite organization just before a story broke that would certainly have got him fired & the timing was just a coinkidink & just because they were best buds....Awww..ain't that sweet..... ? pleeeze...
Spare me the BS schoolyard code stuff about those players who have now come forward.And I seriously doubt that the NFL is likely to have been bamboozled by some malicious gossip,anyway. It's despicable that players stayed quiet but it's not at all the same as participating in it either as a coach or player.Nor does the timelag necessarily undermine the truth of what they assert; it's not hard to understand the pressure they were under to cooperate.
Just because no one explicitly ever said "sweep the leg & I'll give you a c-note" doesn't mean they weren't clearly encouraging exactly that kind of excessive force, legally or illegally applied, by paying extra when an injury resulted. Don't tell me that's an acceptable part of football. It would be a crime in the "real world" & I believe it is here as well.
I'm actually surprised that the NFL went after this so publicly. Given how zealously they guard their rep, it indicates to me that there is some very serious stuff here;this is not about 'tipping' guys for INTs or whatever; that's naughty but surely could have been handled internally. Anything could happen to those involved, including termination, lawsuits. Maybe even jail if this agent or anyone else paid to have a particular player targeted for a particular game or was even simply made privy to such information. Millions are gambled on the NFL & that kind of influence/info would be both very valuable & highly illegal.
Provided the investigation can be wrapped up before training camp, I'd be inclined to wait and see how this plays out. Let the full details come out before making a decision. If he can successfully argue that the system rewarded clean, legal hits, let him make his case.
This is what concerns me if the Rams do stick with Williams as DC. It could have a detrimental effect in how Fisher likes to play his brand of football. His teams NEED to play with an edge to thrive. If you take away the aggressiveness in Fisher, your losing the IT factor, his teams have. The last thing the Rams wanted to hear after hiring Fisher was this news. This could really throw a spanner in the works. Fingers crossed it doesnt effect Fishers plans to use his brand of hard hitting, in your face football.?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater
If Fisher's going to be a true friend we thank him for his 2 months of service and move on. One or two years of rebuilding aren't worth losing another decade after the NFL punishes Williams for relapsing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofGod
The NFL gave itself plausible deniability by destroying the evidence from spygate rather than publicizing it. The same can't be said in this scenario. (although again, "it happened for ages" isn't valid when it looks like the league wants it to stop now.) Additionally the league is triply upset by the coaches paying the bounties and circumventing the cap and mercing the Saints defense to outsiders.
I say sit tight and see what the commissioner does. This is nothing new in the NFL and if Williams gets fired then there should be 31 other DC's on the chopping block as well.
Absolutely. The overreaction to this and the myriad conspiracy theories out there are ridiculous- another example of people overthinking things and drawing their own conclusions based on the shaky testimony of disgruntled ex-players and people who lie for a living (agents). My prediction is that the NFL will heavily fine Williams and the Saints organization and strip them of 2-3 high draft picks. They'll also fine Sean Payton for a lack of organizational control under his watch. They will be punished for instituting a payment system which violates league rules, NOT for directives to purposely injure. There is no way to prove that- it is one person's word against another's. And corroborating testimony from ex-players who were released or left teams on bitter terms is not necessarily reliable. I cannot see year long suspensions or lifetime bans or jail time or any other number of wild scenarios proposed by several who really need to maintain some perspective here.Quote:
Originally Posted by laram0