What should the Rams do about Gregg Williams?

[HUbison]

Regardless of what anyone thinks, it's clear from memos and document releases that the NFL is working on the assumption that there was intent to cause injury in rewarding "knockout" and "cart off" hits.

But Mike, isn't that football? Every down there are 22 guys trying to violently impose their will upon each other. Does that not imply an aggressive act willingly engaged in that could naturally end with injury?

[r8rh8rmike]

But Mike, isn't that football? Every down there are 22 guys trying to violently impose their will upon each other. Does that not imply an aggressive act willingly engaged in that could naturally end with injury?

"Could" naturally end with injury is part of the game, paying a bounty with the aim of causing an opponent to be carried off the field on a stretcher is not. I think we all agree this is not acceptable, as does the NFL.

[HUbison]

"Could" naturally end with injury is part of the game, paying a bounty with the aim of causing an opponent to be carried off the field on a stretcher is not. I think we all agree this is not acceptable, as does the NFL.

Yes, Mike, you are absolutely right. It is wrong to be rewarded for the injury of another.

I'm just saying (not defending, just saying) that the very game of football is violent, and playing the game, even abiding by all rules, lends itself to injury. Specific to this situation, if Williams bounty system was to lay out the big hits (not injuries), then maybe the situation is not quite the boogeyman we currently see. And injuries are simply a by-product of the big hits.

I don't know, I'm just trying to explore every angle.

[NJ Ramsfan1]

Yes, Mike, you are absolutely right. It is wrong to be rewarded for the injury of another.

I'm just saying (not defending, just saying) that the very game of football is violent, and playing the game, even abiding by all rules, lends itself to injury. Specific to this situation, if Williams bounty system was to lay out the big hits (not injuries), then maybe the situation is not quite the boogeyman we currently see. And injuries are simply a by-product of the big hits.

I don't know, I'm just trying to explore every angle.

I'm really not trying to walk both sides of the fence, but I think you and r8rh8r both raise valid points. I know personally I've watched games hoping an opponent (Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, etc.) would get knocked out of the game, but I really wasn't rooting for them to be maimed or permanently injured- just roughed up to the point where their effectiveness would be compromised and to where they really were in no hurry to go back out there. I think it's similar to the people who like NASCAR and root for car crashes. Yes, the crashes themselves are entertaining, but no one wants a guy to die as a result of an accident.

It all comes back to intent. Encouraging your defense to "put a hurtin" on the offense is OK with me if it is done within the framework of the rules. Turning a blind eye to cheap shots is a different story entirely.

[r8rh8rmike]

Yes, Mike, you are absolutely right. It is wrong to be rewarded for the injury of another.

I'm just saying (not defending, just saying) that the very game of football is violent, and playing the game, even abiding by all rules, lends itself to injury. Specific to this situation, if Williams bounty system was to lay out the big hits (not injuries), then maybe the situation is not quite the boogeyman we currently see. And injuries are simply a by-product of the big hits.

I don't know, I'm just trying to explore every angle.

I agree with what you're saying HUb, the line can be difficult to draw, but it looks like the NFL has already decided they accept the "cart off" and "knockout" aspects of the bounty system as intent to injure, and their determination is the only one that matters.

I know personally I've watched games hoping an opponent (Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, etc.) would get knocked out of the game, but I really wasn't rooting for them to be maimed or permanently injured- just roughed up to the point where their effectiveness would be compromised and to where they really were in no hurry to go back out there.

I've done the same thing on loads of occasions as well, which makes it difficult for me to have a clear opinion with this issue, but for me, it still goes back to paying a player for a hit that causes injury, resulting in a "cart off". That term alone is disturbing to me and was part of Williams' payment system.

[HUbison]

I agree with what you're saying HUb, the line can be difficult to draw, but it looks like the NFL has already decided they accept the "cart off" and "knockout" aspects of the bounty system as intent to injure, and their determination is the only one that matters.

Yes, when it comes to suspension and league action. However, Kroenke's determination of the matter, or at least his level of tolerance for the matter, also plays a might big part in Williams future.

[RealRam]

One senses that the very roots and nature of the game will be / are being revised by the NFL. On ongoing effort if you will, that has escalated more and more during the past three, four decades.

American football. Boxing. Hockey. MMA / UFC. [Rugby?] All very violent sports, especially when commercialized -- this business basis makes them much more passionate, more volatile.

Excellent points have been posted here and in a couple of other threads regarding the actual intent of 'big hits': hurt vs. injure. Tough criteria, difficult clarifying. Boxing is easier to monitor in this respect because both individuals -- men and women -- are constantly looking to beat the daylight out of each other within a simpler set of rules, one such rule being that you are not allowed to bite off the ear of your opponent a la Tyson. No rabbit punches, obey the referee, etc.

American football is considerably more complex. Yes, it has a huge multi billion dollar market supported by millions and millions of people (not quite international as soccer but richer, far more lucrative). But in the 21st Century the rules of the game are now necessarily subject to greater scrutiny. Team owners and the teams themselves want to protect their investments and $uper $tars are what sell in this and every business. [Ha, isn't it an irony that even Gregg Williams is, inadvertantly, helping to $tir these investments.]

Interesting ... Gregg Williams might have only intended and promoted to hurt, NOT to maim.

He'll need good lawyers, for sure, to argue in his favor when discussing that fine line!

Ah, the legalities of it all! May true extenuating circumstances help Gregg Williams / STL Rams.


Below, a few examples among many that the NFL is honestly trying to avoid from recurring.

* HOF Johnny Unitas (1933-2002), one the greatest ever to play QB. Well respected by everyone, even those who fiercely battled against him. The SI issue below was published one year before he passed away.


* The great Jim Otto, also HOF and another disabled player... Raiders' hero.

Injuries and surgeries

"Otto punished his body greatly during his NFL career, resulting in nearly 40 surgeries, including 28 knee operations (nine of them during his playing career alone) and multiple joint replacements. His joints are riddled with arthritis, and he has debilitating back and neck problems.

One time, Otto nearly died on the operating table. He also fought off three life-threatening bouts of infections due to his artificial joints, and during one six-month stretch, was without a proper right knee joint because he had to wait for the infection to clear up before another artificial one could be implanted. Today, Otto is handicapped, but he says he wouldn't change a thing if given the opportunity to do it over again. It's detailed, proudly, in his book, "The Pain of Glory" (ISBN 1-58261-066-5), published in 2000.

Jim Otto had his right leg amputated on August 1, 2007." -- Source: Wikipedia


* Mike Webster (1952-2002), HOF center. Steelers icon.

Ailments

"After death, Mike Webster was diagnosed with chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a neurodegenerative disease. It has been speculated that Webster's ailments were due to wear and tear sustained over his playing career; some doctors estimated he had been in the equivalent of "25,000 automobile crashes" in over 25 years of playing football at the high school, college and professional levels. Protective equipment (in particular helmets) was inferior during Webster's time, and defensive players sometimes employed a "head slap" move that was then accepted, although illegal.

Nicknamed 'Iron Mike', Webster's reputation for durability led him to play even though injured."
-- Source: Wikipedia

[r8rh8rmike]

Yes, when it comes to suspension and league action. However, Kroenke's determination of the matter, or at least his level of tolerance for the matter, also plays a might big part in Williams future.

Vert true. I'm conflicted on Williams because I do think he's being singled out for something that is most likely widespread and a practice that the NFL knew existed, but I'm more concerned about the negative effects on the Rams by keeping Williams, who for better or worse has become the poster boy for the entire bounty scandal and all the distractions that go with that.

[HUbison]

Vert true. I'm conflicted on Williams because I do think he's being singled out for something that is most likely widespread and a practice that the NFL knew existed, but I'm more concerned about the negative effects on the Rams by keeping Williams, who for better or worse has become the poster boy for the entire bounty scandal and all the distractions that go with that.

See now, Mike, that's an excellent point. And I don't want the negative effects of keeping Williams either, but I have to ask myself.....what would those negative effects be?

It's not like he's going to start a new bounty system here now? In fact, there will be such a spotlight on the Rams I would bet the Rams organization will be the cleanest in the league.

Or what, will the league/fans/media look down on us because our DC is the bounty posterboy? The league/fans/media already look down on us.

[r8rh8rmike]

See now, Mike, that's an excellent point. And I don't want the negative effects of keeping Williams either, but I have to ask myself.....what would those negative effects be?

It's not like he's going to start a new bounty system here now? In fact, there will be such a spotlight on the Rams I would bet the Rams organization will be the cleanest in the league.

Or what, will the league/fans/media look down on us because our DC is the bounty posterboy? The league/fans/media already look down on us.

You can bet there would be a season long media circus, scrutiny on every move the Rams defensive players make, a suspension to deal with, and a continuing investigation that will always be linked to Williams. And who knows whether or not the issue of letting an outsider, a convicted felon, partipate in Williams bounty program becoming a quagmire. That's an entire Pandora's Box on it's own.

I just see a lot of distractions the Rams don't need in the midst of trying to resurrect a franchise, which is hard enough without distractions.

[RealRam]

... I don't want the negative effects of keeping Williams either, but I have to ask myself ... what would those negative effects be?

It's not like he's going to start a new bounty system here now? In fact, there will be such a spotlight on the Rams I would bet the Rams organization will be the cleanest in the league.

Or what, will the league/fans/media look down on us because our DC is the bounty posterboy?

Right on, HUb! I too had mentioned elsewhere that even if 'Bountygate' had not surfaced a couple of weeks ago in the NFL, DC Williams probably, IMHO, would have desisted from the N.O. incentive program simply because he would have come to his senses -- along with Rams players -- that the infamous system would not have worked any longer, nor would he have gotten away with it A G A I N.

At least I'm trusting he is, a) smart enought to realize the above and, b), not such a felon!

If 'a' and 'b' are true, then we just may end up with a very good, passionate, tough DC!

[Fat Pang]

Regardless of what anyone thinks, it's clear from memos and document releases that the NFL is working on the assumption that there was intent to cause injury in rewarding "knockout" and "cart off" hits.

I don't think its clear at all, what I think is that there have been assumptions widely made and widely reported that the NFL is working on that basis.

Any attempt by the playerbase to refute the intention of any such PRP scheme to injure has been denounced as an effort to avoid criminal charges. Any attempt by the playerbase to suggest that such PRP scheme are widespread has been written off as an attempt to ameliorate the severity of the investigation.

We don't know the contents of the investigations dossier and we don't have the minutes of the meeting Williams had in NY recently. All we know is that there is an investigation ongoing, that there have beeen meeting with NFL senior counsel and that Williams has apologised for his participation in a PRP scheme at NO.

As many of us, including most eloquently the Hub, have suggested on that basis its presumptive to insist that the NFL are proceeding against Williams on the basis of running a PRP scheme with an intent to injure, that he will necessarily be suspended or fired or that he will be subject to criminal proceedings in addition to any punishment the NFL might levy.

That does not mean that any of the people who are asking for patience condone 'bounty systems', have inordinate support for Williams, or don't take injuries in the NFL seriously.

[r8rh8rmike]

I don't think its clear at all, what I think is that there have been assumptions widely made and widely reported that the NFL is working on that basis.

It seems pretty clear to me:

The NFL's report said the Saints maintained a bounty pool of up to $50,000 the last three seasons. Payoffs were made for inflicting game-ending injuries on targeted players, including quarterbacks Brett Favre and Kurt Warner. "Knockouts," in which a player was knocked out of the game, were worth $1,500 and "cart-offs," in which players had to be helped off the field, were worth $1,000. Payments doubled or tripled for the playoffs.

[Fat Pang]

It seems pretty clear to me:

Ouch.

Rather clear.

In which case the NFL now have to make sure that Williams gets trussed up like a thanksgiving turkey.

All other points remain regarding the hits that led to those cart-off being legal or otherwise, the extent to which we have a scapegoat for a long-standing and widespread league practice, the curious lack of testimony from players, referees, coaches, officials and the league before this, the support from players such as Fletcher regarding the PRP vs 'intent to injure' reagrding Williams character and intention and the lack of a welter of complaints, flags and fines regarding Williams and his schemes before this.

I have to think that, in view of the NFL pre-report they must progress in spite of the existence of extenuating circumstances and contradictory evidence and make sure Williams takes his own 'cart-off'.

[PeoriaRam]

American football is considerably more complex. Yes, it has a huge multi billion dollar market supported by millions and millions of people (not quite international as soccer but richer, far more lucrative). But in the 21st Century the rules of the game are now necessarily subject to greater scrutiny. Team owners and the teams themselves want to protect their investments and $uper $tars are what sell in this and every business. [Ha, isn't it an irony that even Gregg Williams is, inadvertantly, helping to $tir these investments.]

It's not just about protecting current investments, it's about making sure there will be future investments. There has been a very noticeable drop in turnouts for such things as Pop Warner and High School football the last few years (since player safety really became a publicized issue) because parents don't want their children to become vegetables or invalids two-to-three decades down the road. The league really wants to promote the idea that football is "safe" because otherwise, there might not be football a generation or 2 down the road.