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Thread: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

  1. #31
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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    I can't possibly be the only one who absolutely LOVES this, can I? This is so motivational... I WISH he was here this year. Just hearing that gives me goosebumps. No defense could play soft with a MF'in speech like that!

    Its a shame that hes gonna be gone for a while! I'm lobbying for him to stay.
    Its posts like that one that make me want to lobby Dez to add a "dislike" button.
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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    So acknowledging that he told his players to go after knees and ankles at the very least, do you think the Rams should keep Williams?
    That is right. I'm a convert. I gave Williams the benefit of the doubt, but that benefit is now removed along with the doubt.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    Make sure you are all talking about the correct thing here. Williams was suspended for allegedly running a bounty program. NOT for telling his players to attempt to injure players. That is a completely different thing.
    I guess you can interpret things differently, but here is what the NFL said in their indictment of Williams, Payton, Loomis, and the Saints:

    The NFL's report said the Saints maintained a bounty pool of up to $50,000 the last three seasons. Payoffs were made for inflicting game-ending injuries on targeted players, including quarterbacks Brett Favre and Kurt Warner. "Knockouts," in which a player was knocked out of the game, were worth $1,500 and "cart-offs," in which players had to be helped off the field, were worth $1,000. Payments doubled or tripled for the playoffs.
    Williams admiited fault and disputed nothing the NFL accused him of.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    Where is the evidence that Williams offered money for Saints players to injure the opposition?
    In addition to player testimonials, there is a part of the audio where Williams says "Remember me, I've got the first one, I've got the first one", as he rubbed his fingers together indicating money. And again, he admitted fault, and denied nothing, including the charge that he paid players to injure opponents.

    You can take the first paragraph of a Peter King expose on the Saints bounty program any way you like:

    On Saturday nights during the 2009 NFL season, Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, the lightning-rod leader of a feisty unit, would stand in front of his men holding white envelopes filled with cash—bonuses for their performances the previous week. As Williams called up player after player, handing them envelopes with amounts ranging from $100 for a special teams tackle inside the opponents' 20-yard line to $1,500 for knocking a foe out of the game, a chant would rise up from the fired-up defenders:

    "Give it back! Give it back! Give it back!"
    Last edited by r8rh8rmike; -04-05-2012 at 08:00 PM.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    I'll answer you, Mike. The question has never been, "is pay for injury unacceptable?" We've all agreed on that since day 1.

    Rather, the question is, "did Williams support a pay for injury system?" That's the question.

    Now, while I think a lot of the "head" talk in that audio is simply bravado, it's hard to doubt what he means when he speaks of Crabtree's ACL, and "that little #10's" concussion. It's very damning audio, no question; and may well be the death nail in Williams professional coffin.
    Agreed.

    Those of us who have tried to resist being carried along with the media tidal wave rather than merely accept everything that's been released and taking it at face value have never doubted that paying players to injure other players was wrong.

    There are however aspects to this episode that concern me and concern me still.

    I still can't get my head around the fact that in all of his Williams time in the league and all of the players that have crossed his path, its taken until now for all this to come out. In addition, there are still players who played for Williams who have gone on record as saying that there was nothing remarkable in what he asked players to do relative to other places they've been in the league.

    Fletcher and Porter being but two.

    That's very different to saying that pay for injury is acceptable.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    I guess you can interpret things differently, but here is what the NFL said in their indictment of Williams, Payton, Loomis, and the Saints:



    Williams admiited fault and disputed nothing the NFL accused him of.



    In addition to player testimonials, there is a part of the audio where Williams says "Remember me, I've got the first one, I've got the first one", as he rubbed his fingers together indicating money. And again, he admitted fault, and denied nothing, including the charge that he paid players to injure opponents.

    You can take the first paragraph of a Peter King expose on the Saints bounty program any way you like:
    I'm not saying Williams is innocent. But we have been told for ages that there is tons of evidence that would bury Williams. A youtube video of audio, with a subtitle that he is rubbing his fingers together (something that we can't see, might I add) is NOT evidence. That is the only part of the video that indicates any kind of involvement with bounties, and it's something we aren't even shown.

    I'm not asking for much here. All I want to see is some proof. If you have suspended a man indefinitely from the NFL, then you need to have some proof to back it up. While this audio seems like it's proof, it's not proof of the bounty scandal at all
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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    I'm not saying Williams is innocent. But we have been told for ages that there is tons of evidence that would bury Williams. A youtube video of audio, with a subtitle that he is rubbing his fingers together (something that we can't see, might I add) is NOT evidence. That is the only part of the video that indicates any kind of involvement with bounties, and it's something we aren't even shown.

    I'm not asking for much here. All I want to see is some proof. If you have suspended a man indefinitely from the NFL, then you need to have some proof to back it up. While this audio seems like it's proof, it's not proof of the bounty scandal at all
    For Williams to be innocent, we need the league to not have conducted the investigation it says it did, we need dozens of players scattered across time and distance to each independently corroborate the lie, we need Williams and every other accused party to apologize for something that didn't happen, we need some of the harshest penalties in the history of the NFL to be meeted out for something that didn't occur, we need a journalist to start making things up in an effort to make Williams look guilty, we need the coincidence of Williams saying something that really really sounds like a bounty but wasn't, and we need basically nobody to be bringing up any of this. The man is guilty, period.
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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    ... and may well be the death nail in Williams professional coffin.
    May well be ??? The thing that galls me the most about this discussion is the underlying psuedo-liberal sentimentalist notion that once caught, some public display of vocal contrition absolves one of the venality of the behavior in the first place. All of a sudden Williams will have found religion and should be given another chance in the Reformist Church of the Rams simply because "he served his time" and said he was oh so sorry? Pulleazze.

    It's like the Catholic Church trying to pontificate on moralities all the while transferring abusive priests. You can't have it both ways. The cancer needs eradicated - regardless how damaging, how pervasive. The NFL shouldn't put the Rams' Organization in the position of a Diociose deciding on whether appropriate contrition has been displayed by one of Satan's little spawns and should minister to more unsuspecting children. Gooddell needs to cleave this menace once and for all and remove the shadow of this crap from hanging over the Rams.

    Everything about the Rams suggest they are moving on. They don't need to carry the baggage of someone else's past. They don't need to be scrutiinzed in later years to see whether public apologies are backed by deeds. They don't need their defense evaluated in terms of the past.

    It's Good Friday. This is not the time to fantasize excuses about why someone's future should be resurrected at the altar of the Rams. A few Hail Marys and a couple of Our Fathers isn't enough. String him up now and go find those priests while you're at it. If it was a capital crime to embezzle from the Treasury, this is just as repugnant bad behavior that ought to be subjected to similar severity ...

    Page Two ...

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    After listening to Mike and Mike, then part of the Herd, both shows say that this is normal "NFL" talk. Everything that Williams said, everything beside the ACL comment, is said in 31 other locker rooms. Mike Golic said that this was very normal (beside the ACL) but then he said that this is the ugly side that no one needs to see and that it was bad to say "Concusion" in this day and age. Colin Cowherd said the same thing and that people need to realise this is the NFL and we need to get over it. I don't know if anyone listen to ESPN and heard this stuff but I thought it was interesting.

    Then again, Warren Sapp and Micheal Irvin said the opposites so you never know.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by adarian
    May well be ???
    Yes, adarian; may....well....be.

    We mere mortals don't have use of your chemically activated crystal ball; therefore I can not say with absolute certainity that Williams will never work as a football coach again. But that would be guess.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    I'm not saying Williams is innocent. But we have been told for ages that there is tons of evidence that would bury Williams. A youtube video of audio, with a subtitle that he is rubbing his fingers together (something that we can't see, might I add) is NOT evidence. That is the only part of the video that indicates any kind of involvement with bounties, and it's something we aren't even shown.

    I'm not asking for much here. All I want to see is some proof. If you have suspended a man indefinitely from the NFL, then you need to have some proof to back it up. While this audio seems like it's proof, it's not proof of the bounty scandal at all
    You want proof? Players admitting that they were paid for "knockouts" and "cart-offs", as well as damning audio not good enough for you? Again, how about the fact that when presented with the explosive charges and evidence the NFL leveled against him, Williams admitted fault and denied absolutely nothing, not one single charge. Does it resonate with you that the only guy not to appeal his suspension was Williams?

    I don't know what else there is to say. If you need a laundry list of things to prove what Williams has already accepted and admitted to, you're probably going to be left unfullfillled, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by U_B_WRITE View Post

    ... I can not say with absolute certainity that Williams will never work as a football coach again. But that would be [a] guess.
    Ahh, I just wanted more normative conviction ... something like " should well be ", "ought to well be" ... you know, some KissMyAsss indignation ...

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave2oo2 View Post
    Colin CowherdChip said the same thing and that people need to realise this is the NFL and we need to get over it.
    Well, if Mr. DungChipforBrains is claiming that sucker-punching an individual, or elbowing a concussed individual at the bottom of a pile, or gator-rolling a QB to twist the knee is the norm of the NFL and 'we need to get over it' then he needs strung up as well ... got enough enablers of bad behavior out in the world without talking-head apologists getting more play then their dimwitted views deserve.

  13. #43
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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Yesterday National Public Radio interviewed Rich Miano and the topic of the audio tape of Williams came up. This is the excerpt:

    SIEGEL: You know, Rich Miano, the talk of pro football fans today is the audio of then New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams giving a locker room speech before the Saints' January playoff loss to San Francisco. Here is a little taste of what actually goes on for several minutes. Gregg Williams' favorite word here is bleeped out in deference to the FCC.

    (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED AUDIO)

    GREGG WILLIAMS: We need to decide on how many times we can beat Frank Gore's head. We need to decide how many times we can bull rush, and we can (bleep) put Vernon Davis' ankles over the pile. And when they are fearing us, they give us the ball.

    SIEGEL: At one point, the filmmaker who released this recording said Williams was actually rubbing his fingers to suggest cash, as he talked about who would hit the ***** quarterback, Alex Smith. There's been a lot of tongue clucking over this speech today. How unusual is that? How unusual is it - a talk like that from a defensive coach?

    MIANO: I think it's very prevalent, and I think that the suspension to Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis and, obviously, Gregg Williams has been very, very severe. Nobody wants to hurt one another. I think there is - when you enter the National Football League, you realize your livelihood is based upon your ability to continue to play and earn as much revenue as possible. So therefore I don't think anyone wants to end somebody's career. But, yes, you do, as an opponent, want to take somebody out of the football game. If that's going to, obviously, affect your ability to win or lose that football game so...

    SIEGEL: So when you say that the penalties against the New Orleans Saints' general manger and coach and defensive coordinator were very severe, are you saying that because the idea that you should go out there and try to take the guy out of the game is common? It's something that you would expect to hear from a defensive coach.

    MIANO: Yeah. And I started playing in 1985 and played all the way to 1996. And there were bounties throughout the league. It was part of the game for so long. There's some legacy of coaches that obviously have been in this league for decades. And even the young coaches have come up learning this type of bounties and incentives and what motivates players. Even though players are making millions of dollars, it's amazing what is extra cash will do in terms of an incentive to hit somebody as hard as you can and possibly take them out of the football game.

    SIEGEL: Well, Rich Miano, thank you very much for talking with us about it today.

    MIANO: Aloha. And have a great day.


    Richard James Miano (born September 3, 1962) is a former American football defensive back who played 11 seasons for three teams in the National Football League. Rich was a walk-on for University of Hawaii team in 1981 and became an all WAC defensive back in 1983 and 1984. In 1985 Rich was drafted in the 6th round by the New York Jets with whom he played six seasons. After missing the entire 1990 season with a knee injury, Miano went to the Philadelphia Eagles where he played four seasons. In 1995, his final season in the NFL, he played for the Atlanta Falcons. Upon retirement from the NFL, Miano moved back to his home in Honolulu, Hawaii where he is currently the Associate Head Coach with the University of Hawaii, where he played his college career.

    The NFL can paint Payton,Williams and Vitt as maverick villains, but from everything I have read and heard recently, this has been going on for years and years throughout the league. Now that the NFL's dirty laundry has been aired publicly, Goodell has to quickly implement all the damage control he can by making an example of the Saints, (namely Payton, Vitt, and Williams in particular. If the NFL is so concerned about "protecting players," why not conduct a league wide investigation? I doubt that will ever happen - talk about a "black eye" - It's safer to pretend this is just an aberration by a few, and the rest of the teams conduct their programs within honorable guidelines.

    Beat the living snot out of the guys who got caught and hope it will scare the rest of the DCs out there to tread the straight and narrow. Maybe it will work ... I am not defending the "bounty system," just pointing out that it has permeated the league in various forms for many years. It is hard for me to believe league officials, team owners, let alone coaches and players just discovered this "despicable" practice existed, and are genuinely outraged.


    Maybe the best solution would be for Goodell to demand that closed circuit cameras and audio recording equipment be installed in every team's meeting rooms to ensure that there be no infractions .. But - no matter what - bring on 18 game regular seasons !!!
    Last edited by MauiRam; -04-06-2012 at 02:16 PM.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by adarian_too View Post
    Ahh, I just wanted more normative conviction ... something like " should well be ", "ought to well be" ... you know, some KissMyAsss indignation ...
    My favorite kind of indignation.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    I can't possibly be the only one who absolutely LOVES this, can I? This is so motivational... I WISH he was here this year. Just hearing that gives me goosebumps. No defense could play soft with a MF'in speech like that!

    Its a shame that hes gonna be gone for a while! I'm lobbying for him to stay.
    Your not the only one Sosa. It's definitely inspirational stuff, and gets you fired up reading it. Who wouldn't want a coach with this much passion, knowledge, and experience running our defense. Williams was wrong for cheating, but atleast thrown his hands up straight away. Now if people would just let it drop, and let him serve his time in peace. But absolutely no chance. I don't believe for a second Williams is the devil reincarnated. I just believe his arrogance, and passion got the better of him this time. The big problem I have is that Gregg Williams is likely to never be the same coach again. The Big Brother world we all live in, will make sure of that.

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