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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    "
    Not everyone is stunned by
    Thursday's audio release
    starring a heat-seeking Gregg Williams.Former New York Giants linebacker Carl Banks, who played for Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick, says Williams' speech was nothing unusual.Williams, the former New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator, was caught on tape urging his troops to target San Francisco ***** players before their NFC divisional playoff game in January. Williams calls for aggression to running back Frank Gore, quarterback Alex Smith, tight end Vernon Davis and receivers Michael Crabtree and Kyle Williams.

    On the heels of the Saints' "bounty" scandal, the tirade paints Williams' in a dark light, but Banks says the rhetoric is old hat.
    "The tenor of the speech is not uncommon on a Saturday night before a game," Banks told the New York Daily News on Thursday. "Some of the stuff was over the line, but 90-95 percent was what you would hear within most (defensive) rooms."
    Williams asks Saints players to go after a concussion-addled Kyle Williams. The Giants acknowledged targeting Kyle Williams one week later in the NFC Championship Game.
    Nothing new for Banks: "The Kyle Williams concussion thing, that's their game," he said. "Look, if he comes back from a concussion, the goal is not to give him a concussion. It's, 'Let's put some shots on him.' See if he's timid. See if he's fully recovered.
    "... The whole 'kill the head, the body will follow,' that's a metaphor," Banks said. "It's coach-speak."
    In this case, coach-speak that's vaulted Williams far from re-entry into the National Football League.
    We get it: Coaches aren't handing out tea and crumpets in meeting rooms. The game remains a violent one, but in this case, it was the specificity of Williams' speech that generated surprise. Maybe not for Banks, but certainly for the league office. "

    - NFL.com



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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam
    The NFL can paint Payton,Williams and Vitt as maverick villains, but from everything I have read and heard recently, this has been going on for years and years throughout the league.
    I've heard the same thing, from just about everybody. What I've also heard from just about everybody is that Williams took it too far by instructing his players to specifically target an ACL and look to concuss an opponent. That was always the caveat in the discussion.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave2oo2 View Post
    Colin Cowherd said the same thing and that people need to realise this is the NFL and we need to get over it.
    I'm pretty sure Colin Cowherd never played a snap of organized football in his life.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by mh-i View Post
    I'm pretty sure Colin Cowherd never played a snap of organized football in his life.
    While I agree, if that is criteria for having a opinion aboutfootball then only a small amount of people could have a opinion. A lot of wellrespect people have never played a down in football but we hang on every wordthey said. Colin is a insider that talks to a lot of football people and thatis what builds his opinion. I also referenced Golic having the same opinion andhe might have played on one of the best defense the NFL have ever seen. I don'tthink the argument, "He never played football," can stick simplybecause the ratio of people who have playedeople who haven't played is sosmall.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    I've heard the same thing, from just about everybody. What I've also heard from just about everybody is that Williams took it too far by instructing his players to specifically target an ACL and look to concuss an opponent. That was always the caveat in the discussion.
    Per the "caveat" he was suspended indefinitely. He got caught and is being punished. I believe other coaches and players "test" opposing players who are injured. It is part of the game, and has been for a long time. Why is there so much emphasis on "playing through pain - playing through injuries?" Because pain and injuries are to be expected. I just don't care much for the moralizing and pontificating. We want a tough, smash mouth in your face intimidating defense, but we don't want to hear a coach say to his players "tear his head off."

    There are rules against bounties as well there should be. Williams knew the rules, was warned, blew it off and got busted badly. He is now paying for it plain and simple.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    Per the "caveat" he was suspended indefinitely. He got caught and is being punished. I believe other coaches and players "test" opposing players who are injured. It is part of the game, and has been for a long time. Why is there so much emphasis on "playing through pain - playing through injuries?" Because pain and injuries are to be expected. I just don't care much for the moralizing and pontificating. We want a tough, smash mouth in your face intimidating defense, but we don't want to hear a coach say to his players "tear his head off."

    There are rules against bounties as well there should be. Williams knew the rules, was warned, blew it off and got busted badly. He is now paying for it plain and simple.
    If purposely targeting an opposing players ACL for injury is business as usual in the NFL, it's news to every player and coach I've listened to in the last few days. On the contrary, every indication I get is that it is not the norm and takes thing way to far. Fiery "knock the snot out of 'em" or "this is war" rhetoric is nothing out of the ordinary, but "take out that outside ACL" crosses a line. And you're right, Williams is paying for it.

    As far as moralizing and pontificating, I don't think it's inappropriate when you're talking about a coach specifically instructing his players to purposely try to destroy an opponents knee, possibly ending a career or even permanently injuring.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    A few general comments based on stuff I've read from the few Gregg Williams posts we have in here:

    First of all, saying all of this is "part of the game" is kind of the point, if true. The purpose of suspensions/fines/etc is to change behavior. So yeah, if this is as widespread as some people say it is, that's exactly why you need to exact punishment for it, so it stops becoming "part of the game."

    Second, the argument that "everybody does this" is irrelevant, even if it's true. There are plenty of things that people get away with in the NFL and in life every single day. It doesn't mean that those who get caught shouldn't be punished. "Your honor, my client did in fact burglarize that house, but burglaries happen every day and most burglars don't get caught."

    Third, the equating of locker room phrases such as "go to war" and "taking out that outside ACL" is ridiculous. One of them is a metaphor for playing hard and physical, the other is a specific instruction to injure a player. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which is which.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    I can't believe all the hypocritical rhetoric going on here. Everybody knows this stuff goes on all the time in locker rooms and people say that the NFL has become too soft and that QB's should wear tutu's. You think this stuff didn't go on during Jack Lambert's days? How about Ray Nitschke and Dick Butkus? How many of you have sat in front of the TV while Joe Schmo is carving up the Rams and thought "I wish he got hurt"? I know I have. Football players know what they are getting into when they choose the sport. It's football, not swan lake ballet school.
    Dave2oo2 likes this.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by Vis View Post
    What idiot gave the speech? I still think the Rams should say goodbye to Williams formally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave2oo2 View Post


    After all this, I hope the Rams cut ties and just remove the negitive press around the Rams.
    Quote Originally Posted by mh-i View Post
    His career is now officially over. The Rams need to cut ties immediately. The Saints also can forget about their appeals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    I'm still there. I still think the guy should be fired. I said this was ugly and it's only getting uglier.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Weasel View Post
    A few general comments based on stuff I've read from the few Gregg Williams posts we have in here:

    First of all, saying all of this is "part of the game" is kind of the point, if true. The purpose of suspensions/fines/etc is to change behavior. So yeah, if this is as widespread as some people say it is, that's exactly why you need to exact punishment for it, so it stops becoming "part of the game."

    Second, the argument that "everybody does this" is irrelevant, even if it's true. There are plenty of things that people get away with in the NFL and in life every single day. It doesn't mean that those who get caught shouldn't be punished. "Your honor, my client did in fact burglarize that house, but burglaries happen every day and most burglars don't get caught."

    Third, the equating of locker room phrases such as "go to war" and "taking out that outside ACL" is ridiculous. One of them is a metaphor for playing hard and physical, the other is a specific instruction to injure a player. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which is which.
    GROUND DOG 39 and DE_Ramfan like this.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by GroundChuck View Post
    I can't believe all the hypocritical rhetoric going on here. Everybody knows this stuff goes on all the time in locker rooms and people say that the NFL has become too soft and that QB's should wear tutu's. You think this stuff didn't go on during Jack Lambert's days? How about Ray Nitschke and Dick Butkus? How many of you have sat in front of the TV while Joe Schmo is carving up the Rams and thought "I wish he got hurt"? I know I have. Football players know what they are getting into when they choose the sport. It's football, not swan lake ballet school.
    I honestly do not see how it is that hard to understand the difference between playing physically and intentionally aiming to injure another player. Do you honestly think attempting to eliminate things such as twisting ankles and hitting other players in the head at the bottom of a pile make a sport like "swan lake ballet school"? It should take about half a second of thought to see there's a difference between hitting another player within the rules of the game and attempting to twist his ankle at the bottom of a pile to tear his ACL.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Weasel View Post
    A few general comments based on stuff I've read from the few Gregg Williams posts we have in here:

    First of all, saying all of this is "part of the game" is kind of the point, if true. The purpose of suspensions/fines/etc is to change behavior. So yeah, if this is as widespread as some people say it is, that's exactly why you need to exact punishment for it, so it stops becoming "part of the game."
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Weasel View Post
    Second, the argument that "everybody does this" is irrelevant, even if it's true. There are plenty of things that people get away with in the NFL and in life every single day. It doesn't mean that those who get caught shouldn't be punished. "Your honor, my client did in fact burglarize that house, but burglaries happen every day and most burglars don't get caught."
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Weasel View Post
    Third, the equating of locker room phrases such as "go to war" and "taking out that outside ACL" is ridiculous. One of them is a metaphor for playing hard and physical, the other is a specific instruction to injure a player. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which is which.
    Can't entirely agree here. We can argue over semantics forever, (go to war in its most basic sense refers to going out and actually killing people perceived as one's enemies) If Williams had said "Let's go out and test Crabtree's knee thoroughly, we might not be quibbling over this .. (Lots of ways to interpret what's implied in "thoroughly." in this instance)

    I can't begin to recall how many times NFL announcers will comment prior to the start of a televised game on a key player who is either playing through an injury or returning from an injury, and state that the opposing team is going to test said player's injury right out of the gate.

    Obviously announcers must be tactful given they are on national tv, but couched in their comments is that opposing teams are going to put hits on said player likely in the vicinity of said player's injury to both test and try to intimidate them, possibly sending them back to the sidelines.

    SIEGEL: You know, Rich Miano, the talk of pro football fans today is the audio of then New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams giving a locker room speech before the Saints' January playoff loss to San Francisco. Here is a little taste of what actually goes on for several minutes. Gregg Williams' favorite word here is bleeped out in deference to the FCC.

    GREGG WILLIAMS: We need to decide on how many times we can beat Frank Gore's head. We need to decide how many times we can bull rush, and we can (bleep) put Vernon Davis' ankles over the pile. And when they are fearing us, they give us the ball.

    SIEGEL: At one point, the filmmaker who released this recording said Williams was actually rubbing his fingers to suggest cash, as he talked about who would hit the ***** quarterback, Alex Smith. There's been a lot of tongue clucking over this speech today. How unusual is that? How unusual is it - a talk like that from a defensive coach?

    MIANO: I think it's very prevalent, and I think that the suspension to Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis and, obviously, Gregg Williams has been very, very severe. Nobody wants to hurt one another. I think there is - when you enter the National Football League, you realize your livelihood is based upon your ability to continue to play and earn as much revenue as possible. So therefore I don't think anyone wants to end somebody's career. But, yes, you do, as an opponent, want to take somebody out of the football game. If that's going to, obviously, affect your ability to win or lose that football game so ...
    My take on Miano's comments: He isn't advocating ending someone's career or doing something illegal. There are many legal hits delivered that knock players out of portions of a game or the entire game - hitting is the name of the game. In boxing when a fighter sustains a cut, his opponent will go after that cut to try and take him out of the fight. In the NFL, when a player is returning from an injury or trying to play through one - he will be tested ..

    SIEGEL: So when you say that the penalties against the New Orleans Saints' general manger and coach and defensive coordinator were very severe, are you saying that because the idea that you should go out there and try to take the guy out of the game is common? It's something that you would expect to hear from a defensive coach.

    MIANO: Yeah. And I started playing in 1985 and played all the way to 1996. And there were bounties throughout the league. It was part of the game for so long. There's some legacy of coaches that obviously have been in this league for decades. And even the young coaches have come up learning this type of bounties and incentives and what motivates players.
    Richard James Miano (born September 3, 1962) is a former American football defensive back who played 11 seasons for three teams in the National Football League. Rich was a walk-on for University of Hawaii team in 1981 and became an all WAC defensive back in 1983 and 1984. In 1985 Rich was drafted in the 6th round by the New York Jets with whom he played six seasons. After missing the entire 1990 season with a knee injury, Miano went to the Philadelphia Eagles where he played four seasons. In 1995, his final season in the NFL, he played for the Atlanta Falcons. Upon retirement from the NFL, Miano moved back to his home in Honolulu, Hawaii where he is currently the Associate Head Coach with the University of Hawaii, where he played his college career.

    We already have rules in place for illegal hits - hits deemed by the league to be unnecessary and jeopardizing to players' safety/career. Officials are enforcing these rules more and more. Goodell is sending a very strong message regarding a team's use of "bounties" which is a good thing. I doubt we'll be hearing much about bounties in 2013 and beyond ...

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Former New York Giants linebacker Carl Banks, who played for Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick, says Williams' speech was nothing unusual....
    "The tenor of the speech is not uncommon on a Saturday night before a game," Banks told the New York Daily News on Thursday. "Some of the stuff was over the line, but 90-95 percent was what you would hear within most (defensive) rooms."
    That other 5-10% is awfully damned significant. To me, it seems particularly stupid for Banks (or anyone else) to compare the tenor of 90-95% of GW's speech to all the other pre-game speeches given by DCs, when the entire controversy is about the 5-10% that is different. The part where he was "over the line" is not an afterthought, it's not an asterisk, it's the center of the freakin' storm.

    As far as I know, nobody is blasting GW for giving a good motivational speech. If his rhetoric had remained metaphorical, nobody would be saying anything about it right now. Telling his players to kill the head and the body will die is a metaphor. Telling his players that he expects every single one of them to hit the head before getting up off the pile is not a metaphor.

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Weasel View Post
    I honestly do not see how it is that hard to understand the difference between playing physically and intentionally aiming to injure another player. Do you honestly think attempting to eliminate things such as twisting ankles and hitting other players in the head at the bottom of a pile make a sport like "swan lake ballet school"? It should take about half a second of thought to see there's a difference between hitting another player within the rules of the game and attempting to twist his ankle at the bottom of a pile to tear his ACL.
    My point, maybe not so easy to make out in my post, was some people are making like they are aghast that this type of thing is happening in the NFL. Oh my God! Bounties! Coaches like Buddy Ryan, Bud Carson, and others probably had bounty systems as well especially back in the day of players and the low pay they were making. I'm sure the speeches by DC's in the past were probably worse. Also, you don't think this guy was not trying to rip somebody's head off when making tackles?:

    Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****-jacklambertlinebacker.jpg

    I think it's just because it's Greg Williams is why some folks here are up in arms, would you really care if it was somebody else's DC on another team?

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Quote Originally Posted by ZiaRam View Post
    It Doesn't Matter What You People Think
    Just stay in your lane!

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    Re: Williams urged Saints to injure specific *****

    Kluwe, Shiancoe call Williams 'neanderthal'

    (Mark J. Rebilas, John David Mercer-US PRESSWIRE)

    Vikings punter Chris Kluwe has been vocal in his distaste for the Saints' bounty program since news of it first broke, but hearing a tape of former New Orleans coordinator Gregg Williams dissecting how to best injure players sent Kluwe to Twitter again.

    A pair of Minnesota Vikings teammates can't let go of the thought they should have been playing in the Super Bowl two-plus years ago after the latest came to light on former New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams' bounty system.

    Audio released Thursday revealed Williams' tough tactics before a January playoff game against the San Francisco *****. Williams told his players in a meeting that was taped for a documentary to target a number of San Francisco players, stating, "Every single one of you, before you get off that pile, affect the head. Early, affect the head. Continue, touch and hit the head."

    For the Vikings, who lost to the Saints in the NFC Championship Game after the 2009 season when New Orleans reportedly had a bounty on Minnesota quarterback Brett Favre, the audio opened up old wounds. Hearing the words was enough to send Vikings punter Chris Kluwe into another of his Twitter tirades.

    "All you bounty apologists may want to listen to the Gregg Williams audio. #whatiswrongwithpeople," Kluwe wrote on his Twitter page (@chriswarcraft). " ‘The way you earn respect is through fear'. Are you (f******) kidding me? What kind of neanderthal message does that send.

    "No wonder this world's so messed up if people think that's an appropriate way to act and are willing to defend that kind of behavior."

    Tight end Visanthe Shiancoe, a free agent this offseason, responded to Kluwe, "what do u expect from a neanderthal?"

    Some former players have said Williams' speech isn't all that different from what is heard week to week in the NFL, but Kluwe disagreed. Responding to Shiancoe, Kluwe wrote, "Man, I know we've seen some crazy-a** speeches, but that's just unbelievable. What a jerk."

    Still showing bitterness over missing out on the Super Bowl still leaves a mark, Shiancoe replied, "We could have a ring right now."

    Kluwe responded, "Heh no use looking back, gotta keep pushing forward. Can't change the past."

    Favre, of course, was the target of a high-low hit in the game that severely injured his ankle. He continued but was obviously hobbled. The Vikings ended up losing in overtime to the Saints, who beat the Indianapolis Colts in the Super Bowl.

    In the audio released Thursday, Williams told his team before the ***** game to "find out the first two series of the game, the little wide receiver, No.10 (Kyle Williams) about his concussion. We need to (expletive) put a lick on him right now. He needs to decide. … We need to decide whether (Michael) Crabtree want to be a fake (expletive) prima donna, or he wants to be a tough guy. We need to find it out. He becomes human when we (expletive) take out that outside ACL. We need to decide on how many times we can beat Frank Gore's head. We need to decide how many times we can bull-rush and we can (expletive) put Vernon Davis' ankles over the pile."

    The coach also made a gesture rubbing his thumb and two fingers together to signify money when he said the team needed to hit quarterback Alex Smith in the chin. He was suspended indefinitely as part of the NFL's punishment for the bounty program, which reportedly Williams supported going back to his time in Buffalo almost a decade ago.

    Kluwe returned to Twitter later, possibly calmer, and explained why the issue needed to be addressed.

    "I see a lot of people asking about the context of the Gregg Williams audio clip as it relates to how other teams talk. I will enlighten!," Kluwe tweeted. "90% of what he said was standard rah rah motivational stuff. Hit guys hard, get him going sideways, etc.; all fine and heard before.

    "The part that is an issue is the other 10%, where he specifically talks about targeting ACL's, twisting guys' ankles in the pile, and trying to hit a concussion victim in the head again. That's why (Roger) Goodell has to come down so hard on this; you don't want that spreading."

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