You have to admit...

[coy bacon]

Though similar, that quote lacks the panache of the famous Twain quote.

It better have some quality of improvement. I would expect a great writer like Twain to adapt a quote succinctly to the language of his culture and time.


OTOH, the KJV has a reverential quality to it.
17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

And no, AV is not an OT expert.

[AvengerRam]

And no, AV is not an OT expert.

That statement is funny for three reasons.

First, you have no idea what my background is with respect to the Old Testament. Truth is, I do have a fairly strong background in that area, having gone to Yeshiva for the first few years of my schooling.

Second, when I see the abbreviation "OT," I think of "overtime," and I happen to be an expert in federal overtime law.

Third, as points one and two aptly demonstrate, you have failed to follow the advice of the Proverbs or Mark Twain and, as a result, revealed your foolishness by electing not to remain silent.

Ah, how I love irony.

[HUbison]

That statement is funny for three reasons.

First, you have no idea what my background is with respect to the Old Testament. Truth is, I do have a fairly strong background in that area, having gone to Yeshiva for the first few years of my schooling.

Second, when I see the abbreviation "OT," I think of "overtime," and I happen to be an expert in federal overtime law.

Third, as points one and two aptly demonstrate, you have failed to follow the advice of the Proverbs or Mark Twain and, as a result, revealed your foolishness by electing not to remain silent.

Ah, how I love irony.

Truth be told there are more than a few quotes attributed to others which find their origin in scripture. So AR I assume you are quite versed in the Pentateuch...does Yeshiva cover the poetic books, prophets, so on? Sorry to go tangent here, but I have no knowledge of Jewish education and am sincerely curious.

[AvengerRam]

The focus was more around the Torah (aka The Five Books of Moses) though the entire Tanach (which includes what you referred to as the more poetic portions) was touched upon in my studies.

I'm actually not claiming to be an expert in the Old Testament, as its been over 20 years since I studied the subject. My point was simply that it was funny that Coy made a statement about me when he does not know whether that statement was accurate - given that this thread has gone on the tangent of the Twain quote.

In the end, its just a little friendly offseason verbal sparring.

[HUbison]

The focus was more around the Torah (aka The Five Books of Moses) though the entire Tanach (which includes what you referred to as the more poetic portions) was touched upon in my studies.

I'm actually not claiming to be an expert in the Old Testament, as its been over 20 years since I studied the subject. My point was simply that it was funny that Coy made a statement about me when he does not know whether that statement was accurate - given that this thread has gone on the tangent of the Twain quote.

In the end, its just a little friendly offseason verbal sparring.

You gotta love the offseason.

[Nick]

Is Martz a genius or a dolt for telling the football world that Faulk's knee had been rejuvinated after his second surgery in less than a year? Was there a strategy with this claim towards the draft? Martz saying that Faulk's knee was ok and leading everyone to believe they were not interested in a RB. Highly doubtful since it was no secret that the Rams were interested in Clarett. So, to me, it looks like another case of Martz opening his fat mouth and acting like a dolt when there is no need.

Clarett wasn't a first round 'back, so the Rams showing their interest in them doesn't necessarily mean Faulk's knee isn't as good as advertised. Common sense seems to dictate that Faulk doesn't have much left considering he's 31 and has been having surgeries. At some point, the Rams have to look at another option, but looking at Clarett doesn't mean they're desperate for an immediate answer. Drafting Clarett would mean a team is going to spend at least a season or two getting him ready for the pro game, which logically means you expect to have another option for the next one to two years.

However, for Martz to overly praise Faulk and talk up his knee as being fine seems to tell other teams in the league that the Rams won't be making a move to get a running back early in the draft, despite that being exactly what they did. If I'm the Rams and I want teams to think something, I tell them whatever it takes to get them to believe it. It's hard to say what exactly the Rams had rated as their biggest need, but they probably had Steven Jackson pretty high on their board leading up to the draft. For the moment, let's assume the Rams did know about Marshall Faulk's questionable health, Martz made his comments as a smokescreen, and the Rams had RB as one of their top priorities in the draft.

Recently, the trend has been that teams haven't been taking running backs all that high as the risk seems to be too great. For every LT or Jamal Lewis there's a Curtis Enis or Thomas Jones. In 2001, after LT was taken high (rightfully so), the next back (McAllister) wasn't taken until 23rd. In 2002, none of the first round backs have really amounted to anything. And in 2003, the only two backs taken in the first round look like they're going to be facing their second year in back-up duty.

The point I'm getting at is that there's a growing trend that running backs aren't taken that high in the draft. And regardless of what anyone thinks of Steven Jackson, this was a pretty weak year for running backs overall, IMO. There were wild rumors that Detroit might take a RB with their top pick or they might trade down to grab one, but they didn't because there really wasn't a running back that was dominant enough to really deserve to be taken there. Considering how few teams actually needed RBs after last season, the Rams had a good shot to get either Jackson, Kevin Jones, Chris Perry, or Greg Jones with the 26th pick if they really wanted a 'back. After New England traded for Corey Dillon, the liklihood of the Rams getting one of the top two rated backs seemed to increase because Detroit and Dallas were really the only two teams on the board ahead of St. Louis that desperately needed a RB.

Given their position on the board, the Lions were almost guaranteed to get either Kellen Winslow Jr, Sean Taylor, or one of the top receivers in this class -- all of whom would rank higher on most teams boards than any of the RBs in this class. The Bears and the Bucs both could have drafted RB, but they got their starters by nabbing vets instead (in the case of Thomas Jones and Charlie Garner). The Broncos could have taken a 'back after trading away Clinton Portis, but they're known for making big names out of non-1st round talent (Portis was a second round pick, Terrell Davis and Mike Anderson in the 6th round, Olandis Gary in the 4th), so it wasn't surprising or unexpected to see them address other needs in the first round. The only other team who really had a good slot and a good need at RB was Dallas. So the Rams had a really good shot at getting one of the top two running backs even before the draft played out.

Therefore, it would make sense for St. Louis to smokescreen and downplay their need of RB in order to try and convince teams that they could pass on a RB early in the first round and make a move either later in the first round or in the early second to get one of the better backs in the draft, like Detroit did to get Kevin Jones. By making teams think they didn't have a great need at RB (looking at Clarett makes this a need, but I think most predicted it would be addressed either in Rd3 or Day 2), it would seem to me the Rams helped contribute to the belief that teams who picked in the top 15 could pass on a RB, address other needs with their first pick, and get good value at that position either at their current position in Round 2 or could make a trade to move up and get good value for their pick.

Now who knows, I may be giving Mike Martz and the Rams a lot more credit than they deserve. All of this is assuming that they marked RB as a big need going into the draft. While I'm sure that they didn't expect Jackson to drop to them, I seriously doubt they weren't planning on or even considering one of the top two running backs being available at or near their draft position, especially after Dillon was sent to New England. Logically, just by looking at team needs and offseason moves, the Rams were in prime position to take either Kevin Jones or Steven Jackson, assuming the Cowboys would have taken one or the other instead of trading out of their slot. When the Cowboys traded out of that position and took Losman, the Rams had their pick of running backs, which might have been exactly what they were after to begin with.

[AvengerRam]

I don't think there was any alterior motive when Martz said what he did about Faulk's knee. My guess is that he had received a favorable report after Faulk's most recent surgery, so when he was asked a question about it he expressed optimism. That's it.

Hardly worth all this debate and speculation.

[Nick]

I don't think there was any alterior motive when Martz said what he did about Faulk's knee. My guess is that he had received a favorable report after Faulk's most recent surgery, so when he was asked a question about it he expressed optimism. That's it.

Hardly worth all this debate and speculation.

I'm sure that's a part of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Rams used this optimism in Faulk's health to downplay their need at RB in order to try and get better value in the draft.

Even if they didn't want a RB, they could have been in a position to trade their pick for a pick in the second round and maybe the fourth or fifth so another team could move up and get one of the best 'backs on the table. Then, with the second round pick, they could have taken someone at a better value position, like Troupe or Smiley, who would both have filled needs.

[HUbison]

I'm sure that's a part of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Rams used this optimism in Faulk's health to downplay their need at RB in order to try and get better value in the draft.

Even if they didn't want a RB, they could have been in a position to trade their pick for a pick in the second round and maybe the fourth or fifth so another team could move up and get one of the best 'backs on the table. Then, with the second round pick, they could have taken someone at a better value position, like Troupe or Smiley, who would both have filled needs.

Exactly. I mean what would they have to gain by saying the knee is shot. That's like playing poker with your hand facing out. Show your opponent your cards and then react to what they do.

Martz' comments are the only comments that would have even made sense regardless of Faulk's health. And no, I don't consider that lying. At least no more than bluffing in poker, it's just how the game is played.

[RamDez]

Absolutely not!

I'm just tired of seeing him with his foot in his mouth.

I certainly don't expect him to tip his hand about the team's draft strategy, or give away anything along the lines of gameplans or something that would help the other team's coaching staff in their preparations when they are playing the Rams.

However, he has shown a history of statements and comments, that in hind sight, appear to be at the least self-contradicting and at the worst flat out dishonest. All I'm saying is that sometimes it's better to just say nothing.

You know what, if all we have to complain about when it comes to our head coach is that sometimes he does not know when to shut up, colour me blue and start shouting "FREEDOM" cause I am happy with that.

[coy bacon]

That statement is funny for three reasons.

First, you have no idea what my background is with respect to the Old Testament. Truth is, I do have a fairly strong background in that area, having gone to Yeshiva for the first few years of my schooling.

Second, when I see the abbreviation "OT," I think of "overtime," and I happen to be an expert in federal overtime law.

Third, as points one and two aptly demonstrate, you have failed to follow the advice of the Proverbs or Mark Twain and, as a result, revealed your foolishness by electing not to remain silent.

Ah, how I love irony.

AV: "I'm actually not claiming to be an expert in the Old Testament, as its been over 20 years since I studied the subject."


Love this.
Actually Av, I've read enough of your work to know that you are not an expert in the OT. That's not a criticism, just an accurate observation. Further, an OT expert would have know that Twain re-hashed a quote from the OT.

Second, you admit that you are not an expert in the OT! Therefore, you are admitting I called it right!

Third, once again, it is you that should have heeded the OT's advice and kept your mouth shut, or withheld those ever moving fingers from making "fool"ish statements.


Now then, had I said that you were not an expert in OT (overtime) law, then your jibe would be warranted. But in this case the proverb hits and the shoe fits, so wear it.

[Nick]

Exactly. I mean what would they have to gain by saying the knee is shot. That's like playing poker with your hand facing out. Show your opponent your cards and then react to what they do.

Martz' comments are the only comments that would have even made sense regardless of Faulk's health. And no, I don't consider that lying. At least no more than bluffing in poker, it's just how the game is played.

Even if Martz says that he's not sure about the knee and they'll just have to see how it goes, it increases the Rams' potential need at RB and means that other teams might have lesser value picking later at that position. There clearly are a number of reasons why overpraising or being a bit too excited about Faulk's health makes sense here.

But speaking of poker, I remember this great hand the last game I played. It was down to me and two friends of mine, one being a girl who had a major chip lead over my buddy and I. I was dealt pocket deuces and made a preflop raise which she called, so it was heads up action on the flop, which gave me two more deuces. So I'm sitting there with four of a kind. She raises me a pretty decent sized raise, and I completely bluffed her out and with this pitiful voice (we'd been playing for three hours and I feigned fatigue) asked her if she'd just put me all in, and she agreed. Damn if she wasn't pissed when she saw my four of a kind.

[Curly Horns]

First off, if speculating on who is the greatest Rams player of all-time during the offseason is worth anything, then I hardly see how this type of speculation is any different.

The statement was you have to admit the Rams look like geniuses with regard to the drafting of Jackson. I do not have to admit that nor do I agree with it. I really think that Jackson just fell to the Rams. As far as smokescreens by teams and how much they play into draft strategies; I am unsure if they do in fact influence teams that much. For the sake of argument; I'll just agree that smokescreens could have some effect. As far as the Rams putting up a smokescreen, I still don't agree with that. However positive Martz made the Faulk surgery sound I still feel he let the cat out of the bag by saying too much. Like I said, most laymen would not have trouble interpreting a major concern with the knee, given what Martz said about the surgery, Faulk's age and past knee surgery history. No I do not think Martz was a genius or even gave an inkling of a smokescreen with relation to Faulk's knee. In fact I think he said too damn much.


:ramlogo:

[AvengerRam]

AV: "I'm actually not claiming to be an expert in the Old Testament, as its been over 20 years since I studied the subject."


Love this.
Actually Av, I've read enough of your work to know that you are not an expert in the OT. That's not a criticism, just an accurate observation. Further, an OT expert would have know that Twain re-hashed a quote from the OT.

Second, you admit that you are not an expert in the OT! Therefore, you are admitting I called it right!

Third, once again, it is you that should have heeded the OT's advice and kept your mouth shut, or withheld those ever moving fingers from making "fool"ish statements.


Now then, had I said that you were not an expert in OT (overtime) law, then your jibe would be warranted. But in this case the proverb hits and the shoe fits, so wear it.

I guess you believe that you are an expert in the Old Testament because you can rattle off a quote or two. I'd rather understand its meaning than have a few quotes memorized, but I guess that's just me.

Kind of reminds me of another quote (which I'll paraphrase) - "Yes, apes do read the Old Testament. They just don't understand it."

That comes from the classic A Fish Called Wanda, though I believe the quote actually originated in Psalm 28(b), Verse 4.2(a)(1)(C), which reads "do not claimeth thou is an expert by mere recitation, lest thou be comparest to the hairy beasts of the forest."

[Nick]

The statement was you have to admit the Rams look like geniuses with regard to the drafting of Jackson. I do not have to admit that nor do I agree with it.

"We are supposed to be somewhat pals with a common interest in the Rams. A bunch of guys and gals BS'n about their favorite team. I guess for the purposes of that, I am a little more tolerant of fellow Rams fans overstatements or slight exaggerations, when I realize the context of the point they are trying to make. A little give and take, if you will."

For a guy who suggested a little give and take was necessary with certain statements when someone's trying to make a point, you're sure being fairly defensive and rigid about the wording of my thread. I wasn't literally asking everyone to admit how good this made the Rams look, yet you seem to suggest my thread was basically calling everyone out.

Go figure.