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  1. #16
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi
    Branch and Holt are comparable in their ability at thise juncture in their career's.
    Now that's just crazy talk. Holt averages nearly twice the yards Branch does each year. Holt runs crisper routes, is more consistent, and might actually be faster than his under-sized counterpart. Branch is nowhere near the player Holt is at this point.

    Big disagreement here. Brandon Moore is far and away the best ILB/MLB in the division. He's a dominant force against the run with his great size and strength, and is a big hitter for a LB. Couple that with the fact of his versatility and Joey porter-esque pass rushing skills and I would only put Urlacher ahead of him in the entire NFC conference. Tatupu and Witherspoon are good in their own right, but Moore outclasses them both. Willis could be in this area of discussion by season's end.
    Now to say Moore belongs in the discussion for best in the division is one thing, but second best in the NFC? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean with a difference-maker like that on the team, how on earth did the ***** end up with a 26th ranked defense? I admit I didn't see the ***** play except against the Rams, but I'd think an inside linebacker who finishes fifth on the team in tackles with 90 probably has not quite reached elite status yet. I mean tackles aren't the only barometer of success, but the better ILBs on other 3-4 teams such as Donnie Edwards (formerly of the Chargers), Tedy Bruschi (Patriots), and James Farrior (Steelers) consistently put up tackle numbers ranging from the 120s-140s. Brain Daddy might be right; maybe by this time next year he'll be a household name, but right now I wouldn't put him any higher than an up-and-comer.

    I'm a person who believes Jones has slipped a bit. He had mental lapses at key times last year. Pace should be #1 if he's completely healthy. Brown is unproven. Jonas Jennings is the most consistent of the three when he plays-- but the problem with him is constant injuries.
    Hate to say it, but I think Jones does deserve the spot over Pace based on last year's performance. I felt like a lot of sacks Barron got the blame for were as much Pace's fault because Bulger was running from the rusher on the left and got hit by the pass rusher on the right.

    I prefer Brown. His leg may not be as big but I'll take the clutch leg over the powerful one any day.
    I might go with Brown, too. Wilkins is consistent, but he also benefits from playing all his home games in a dome.


  2. #17
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    Now that's just crazy talk. Holt averages nearly twice the yards Branch does each year. Holt runs crisper routes, is more consistent, and might actually be faster than his under-sized counterpart. Branch is nowhere near the player Holt is at this point.
    Eh, I don't know about the stats. I just know that Branch was impressive in Seattle. And I'd put Branch's speed up against Holt's any day. Add to that Branch's toughness advantage.

    Now to say Moore belongs in the discussion for best in the division is one thing, but second best in the NFC? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean with a difference-maker like that on the team, how on earth did the ***** end up with a 26th ranked defense? I admit I didn't see the ***** play except against the Rams, but I'd think an inside linebacker who finishes fifth on the team in tackles with 90 probably has not quite reached elite status yet. I mean tackles aren't the only barometer of success, but the better ILBs on other 3-4 teams such as Donnie Edwards (formerly of the Chargers), Tedy Bruschi (Patriots), and James Farrior (Steelers) consistently put up tackle numbers ranging from the 120s-140s. Brain Daddy might be right; maybe by this time next year he'll be a household name, but right now I wouldn't put him any higher than an up-and-comer.
    Well, Moore was promoted relatively late so his impact on the defense was limited. But when he played, he was dominant. Also, he was moved around more than any ILB in the game because of his versatility-- to the point of overkill-- a prime example is the Rams game. He played DE way too often with no capable replacement a MLB.
    Hate to say it, but I think Jones does deserve the spot over Pace based on last year's performance. I felt like a lot of sacks Barron got the blame for were as much Pace's fault because Bulger was running from the rusher on the left and got hit by the pass rusher on the right.
    I can't really say much about what you're talking about because I didn't feel it. I just know that Jones was very underwhelming at times and I had limited exposure to Pace.
    I might go with Brown, too. Wilkins is consistent, but he also benefits from playing all his home games in a dome.
    True.

  3. #18
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    I'd definately put Boldin at #1. His amazingly rugged RAC ability puts him ahead by a large margin. Fitzgerald's leaping ability are unable to resist at #2. Branch and Holt are comparable in their ability at thise juncture in their career's.
    While I can accept that some might question whether Holt is the best receiver in the NFL, he is clearly the best in the NFC West. To compare him to Deion Branch is just crazy talk. If Branch were on the Rams, he'd be competing with Drew Bennett for the #3 WR spot.

    Vernon Davis is unproven yes, but the talent was all there last season. He's the hardest TE in the league to tackle. And actually was a very solid blocking TE too, a knock on him coming out.
    Please. Even our resident Niner fan acknowledged that Davis doesn't deserve to be on the list yet. He might one day, but that's not the issue.

    Big disagreement here. Brandon Moore is far and away the best ILB/MLB in the division. He's a dominant force against the run with his great size and strength, and is a big hitter for a LB. Couple that with the fact of his versatility and Joey porter-esque pass rushing skills and I would only put Urlacher ahead of him in the entire NFC conference.
    In addition to vastly overrating Moore, you have him at the wrong position. He played OLB for the Niners last year. That said, he's a good player, but I wouldn't put him above Peterson or Dansby.

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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    While I can accept that some might question whether Holt is the best receiver in the NFL, he is clearly the best in the NFC West. To compare him to Deion Branch is just crazy talk. If Branch were on the Rams, he'd be competing with Drew Bennett for the #3 WR spot.
    I think the two are comparable. Holt has always been good at adjusting to the ball and has had good hands, similar to Branch. Branch I think offers a bit more RAC ability and is a tougher receiver.

    I wouldn't put Holt near the top of the league though. Receivers that offer little to none RAC ability don't do it for me. I'm the same with Harrison. I'd might even take Isaac Bruce over Holt.


    Please. Even our resident Niner fan acknowledged that Davis doesn't deserve to be on the list yet. He might one day, but that's not the issue.
    I didn't say Davis deserved to be on the list, I only commented on him. But the truth is, unproven as he is, he is already the best RAC TE in the league. That says something.


    In addition to vastly overrating Moore, you have him at the wrong position. He played OLB for the Niners last year. That said, he's a good player, but I wouldn't put him above Peterson or Dansby.
    He played a variety of positions. Like I said, he's one of the most versatile LB's in the league (the most versatile in the NFC). But he dominated when he played inside last year-- I urge you to check out some mid-season Niners games if you can. Vs. Detroit and Minnesota especially.

    Dansby and Tatupu aren't nearly as versatile as Moore is and I woudn't say either is a surer tackler. Probably a bigger hitter than both.

  5. #20
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by rexi
    I wouldn't put Holt near the top of the league though. Receivers that offer little to none RAC ability don't do it for me.
    Wow, I don't know where to start. Last year, he was 4th in receptions, 8th in yards, and 3rd in TDs.......and it was his worst year since '99!!!

    My friend, Holt is one of the best receivers in the league. It's not his status in question; it's, obviously, your ability to judge NFL receivers.
    But the truth is, unproven as he is, he is already the best RAC TE in the league. That says something.
    Actually the truth is, he was ranked 13th in the league for 20+ yard receptions among TEs (71st among all receivers). That says something alright......says Vernon Davis is far from worth of being called the best RAC TE in the league.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #21
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    You're entitled to your own opinion, but I don't think it's fair to judge a receiver based solely on his ability to gain yards after the catch. The run after the catch can be entertaining, but yards gained are yards gained. You don't have to catch and run to get big gains and touchdowns. That's like saying Shaun Alexander isn't among the top runningbacks in the league because he runs around people instead of through them. As far as I'm concerned, you judge the guy based on how well he gets the ball downfield whether it is by winning jump balls, beating guys deep, breaking tackles, precision route-running, whatever. It's the result that matters.

  7. #22
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Wow, I don't know where to start. Last year, he was 4th in receptions, 8th in yards, and 3rd in TDs.......and it was his worst year since '99!!!
    Yeah, Holt has outstanding hands and ball adjustment skills, but the same can be said of a lot of receivers in the league. But honestly, I'm taking a lot of receivers over Holt because he doesn't really do much with the ball in his hands unless he has a lot of space ahead of him-- his whole finesse game is nice but it limits what he can do compared to other more well-rounded guys.
    That says something alright......says Vernon Davis is far from worth of being called the best RAC TE in the league.
    Name a TE that's harder to tackle though? He has a catch in the second Rams/Niners game that illustrates this perfectly. His strength and determination coupled with his speed make him the best RAC TE in the league. It's undeniable.

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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    You're entitled to your own opinion, but I don't think it's fair to judge a receiver based solely on his ability to gain yards after the catch. The run after the catch can be entertaining, but yards gained are yards gained. You don't have to catch and run to get big gains and touchdowns. That's like saying Shaun Alexander isn't among the top runningbacks in the league because he runs around people instead of through them. As far as I'm concerned, you judge the guy based on how well he gets the ball downfield whether it is by winning jump balls, beating guys deep, breaking tackles, precision route-running, whatever. It's the result that matters.
    Funnily enough, I find Alexander to be one of the most overrated players in NFL history. He doesn't "run around people" he runs through (or ran since Hutch is gone) open space opened blockers. He's not powerful, he doesn't make people miss, he can't catch, he can't block etc... And people wonder why he's the most boring RB in the NFL lol

    Seriously, watch him and then go watch Steven Jackson or Frank Gore. It's like night and day. The difference? The ladder two have talent.

  9. #24
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Well, the way I look at it, any back who can put up 1880 yards on the ground in a season is doing something right. That isn't just good blocking. I'd agree that he isn't as exciting to watch as a guy who can manhandle defenders, but that doesn't mean he isn't talented.

    It goes back to what I was saying about results. Let's say one guy runs ten yards down field, catches the ball, and picks up five more. The other guy gets open fifteen yards downfield in the time it takes the other guy to get ten, he turns, catches the ball, and gets immediately tackled. The end result is fifteen yards either way. I see how your argument could apply to strict possession receivers who don't have big play ability, but Torry makes plenty of big plays.

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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Picking a single stat (YAC) and trying to make an argument that Holt is in the same category as Deion Branch is moronic.

    Holt far exceeds Branch in receptions, yards, average, TDs - the works.

    As for Holt "not doing much with the ball in his hands," you have to be kidding. He has a career average of 15.0 yards per reception. He was the fastest WR to reach 10,000 yards in a career EVER (faster that Jerry Rice). He is the ONLY WR who ever had 6 consecutive 1,300 yard seasons. You don't get to those numbers by being unble to run with the ball once you catch it.

    Why am I even bothering. Your arguments are a joke.

  11. #26
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Picking a single stat (YAC) and trying to make an argument that Holt is in the same category as Deion Branch is moronic.

    Holt far exceeds Branch in receptions, yards, average, TDs - the works.

    As for Holt "not doing much with the ball in his hands," you have to be kidding. He has a career average of 15.0 yards per reception. He was the fastest WR to reach 10,000 yards in a career EVER (faster that Jerry Rice). He is the ONLY WR who ever had 6 consecutive 1,300 yard seasons. You don't get to those numbers by being unble to run with the ball once you catch it.

    Why am I even bothering. Your arguments are a joke.
    You are the joke if you think that statistics alone can tell you how good Holt is. You don't know the nature of the yards he's accumulated just by looking at his numbers.

    When is the last time you remember seeing Holt make a big play (a real play, not running through wide open space) with the ball in his hands?

    I mean Terrell Owens, Steve Smith, Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin are all examples of guys that are still a threat after the catch. This adds a dimension to their game Holt doesn't possess. That's why I don't put him in the elite echelon of receivers.

  12. #27
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Rexi -

    Perhaps the best way to shut you up about Torry is for you to actually SEE what a REAL WR can do. Rams fans know Holt's ability, but look at this video, and tell me how can you not see what Avenger has been so patient trying to explain?

    A REAL Wide Reciever

    Pulling in a catch in that kind of coverage is...remarkable. Either that, or you are implying that Seattle's defense....sucks.
    Last edited by RamsFanSam; -06-22-2007 at 10:30 PM.

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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    In addition to vastly overrating Moore, you have him at the wrong position.
    Not exactly. The team used 1 OLB and 2 ILBs. Even though he was technically on the "outside", Moore took over Ulbrich's RILB position. If you check the MIN @ SF gamebook on NFL.com, you'll see him listed as the RILB, though the following gamebooks only list him as the RLB.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Actually the truth is, he was ranked 13th in the league for 20+ yard receptions among TEs (71st among all receivers). That says something alright......says Vernon Davis is far from worth of being called the best RAC TE in the league.
    However, Davis was also one of only 6 TEs to have 2 catches of 40 yards or more. Of those 5 other TEs, 4 of them had at least 29 catches - more than twice what Davis received.

    Now I can't say one way or the other if he's the best in the NFL, but I do know that Davis is very, very good at getting yards after the catch. It's not reflected in the stats because his opportunities to run with the ball were limited due to other factors

    I didn't buy him as a quarterback. He's just so stiff, especially when he drops back to pass. Really stiff. He reminds me of Kurt Warner.
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFanSam View Post
    Rexi -

    Perhaps the best way to shut you up about Torry is for you to actually SEE what a REAL WR can do. Rams fans know Holt's ability, but look at this video, and tell me how can you not see what Avenger has been so patient trying to explain?



    Pulling in a catch in that kind of coverage is...remarkable. Either that, or you are implying that Seattle's defense....sucks.
    I've already acknowledged Holt's outstanding hands and ball adjustment skills. But that's basically all he has going for him. Your video doesn't refute any of what I've said.

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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Nothing you've said is worth bothering to refute. If you posted that Torry Holt is a yellow-bellied sapsucker, would we have to then research his birth certificate to disprove your post? If you posted that Torry Holt is really a robot built by the Honda Corporation, would we have to get a statement from their public relations department to prove you wrong?

    Holt has had plenty of "after the catch" runs during his career. I feel no need to research them to prove it to you. His YAC #s have been down in the past two years, to a large extent, due to the fact that he's been playing with a nagging knee injury that has now been corrected.

    If you choose to ignore that Holt has lead the NFL in total yards receiving twice in his career, and continues to be the most consistently productive WR in football, that is your choice.

    You may also choose to believe in Bigfoot, the Easter Bunny, the Great Pumpkin and that Hilary Clinton is a New Yorker. That's what makes our country great. You are allowed to believe whatever you want - no matter how moronic.

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