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  1. #31
    Rexi Guest

    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Nothing you've said is worth bothering to refute. If you posted that Torry Holt is a yellow-bellied sapsucker, would we have to then research his birth certificate to disprove your post? If you posted that Torry Holt is really a robot built by the Honda Corporation, would we have to get a statement from their public relations department to prove you wrong?

    Holt has had plenty of "after the catch" runs during his career. I feel no need to research them to prove it to you. His YAC #s have been down in the past two years, to a large extent, due to the fact that he's been playing with a nagging knee injury that has now been corrected.

    If you choose to ignore that Holt has lead the NFL in total yards receiving twice in his career, and continues to be the most consistently productive WR in football, that is your choice.

    You may also choose to believe in Bigfoot, the Easter Bunny, the Great Pumpkin and that Hilary Clinton is a New Yorker. That's what makes our country great. You are allowed to believe whatever you want - no matter how moronic.
    Yeah but his runs after the catch are through open space with few defenders in position to tackle him. Ignore me all you want, but think of Terrell Owens or Steve Smith after the catch, and compare it to Torry Holt. The disparity is great because the former two are playmakers with the ball in their hands where Holt is not.

    Pretend all you want, you know I'm right.


  2. #32
    GreatCowGuru Guest

    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    My Children, why must you give Rexi such grief? Can you not see that he is a conniseur? Why, in all my days, I have not yet encountered a mind such as his. It is refreshing to see he is so gifted with the spreading of bullcrap. And, as you know, I know bullcrap when I see it.

    Rexi, I am glad you are trying to read the future in manure. I will tell you that it is a gift, but you need years of training to be accurate. The plops of poop do not speak to many, so be careful to listen well. I fear you have misunderstood what you heard. The cowchips tell those who listen well that the reason you belive Holt is lacking in YAC is because he has kept his mouth shut and does not attract flies like T.O. or Rice. They had to call attention to themselves since they wanted attention.

    Go back to the pasture, young one. You need to learn how to not to spread so much bullcrap, but rather to listen to the plopping of the poop.

  3. #33
    Rexi Guest

    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatCowGuru View Post
    My Children, why must you give Rexi such grief? Can you not see that he is a conniseur? Why, in all my days, I have not yet encountered a mind such as his. It is refreshing to see he is so gifted with the spreading of bullcrap. And, as you know, I know bullcrap when I see it.

    Rexi, I am glad you are trying to read the future in manure. I will tell you that it is a gift, but you need years of training to be accurate. The plops of poop do not speak to many, so be careful to listen well. I fear you have misunderstood what you heard. The cowchips tell those who listen well that the reason you belive Holt is lacking in YAC is because he has kept his mouth shut and does not attract flies like T.O. or Rice. They had to call attention to themselves since they wanted attention.

    Go back to the pasture, young one. You need to learn how to not to spread so much bullcrap, but rather to listen to the plopping of the poop.
    Yeah I'm the one who's spinning BS.....

    What does Torry Holt's mouth have yo do with his play on the field anyway? I have my opinion on Holt because I've watched him play. He shows no interest to make plays with the ball in his hands-- AT ALL. In fact, I've seen him leave yardage on the field many times. When Terrell Owens, Anquan Boldin, or Steve Smith catch the ball the play is far from complete-- often times it's just beginning. They maximize every touch they get.

  4. #34
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    Yeah but his runs after the catch are through open space with few defenders in position to tackle him. Ignore me all you want, but think of Terrell Owens or Steve Smith after the catch, and compare it to Torry Holt. The disparity is great because the former two are playmakers with the ball in their hands where Holt is not.

    Pretend all you want, you know I'm right.
    No, what I know is that you're not very bright.

    YAC is not nearly as important as YPR (yards per reception). Why? Because a "playmaker" is one who (stay with me here, this is going to get a bit complicated) makes plays. Now, let's take two WRs, one catches a 7 yard pass and runs for another 7 yards for a 14 yard gain. Another catches a 12 yard pass and runs for another 3 yards for a 15 yard gain.

    Now... here's where it gets tough... Which WR has made a bigger play? Let me add a factor... let's say its 3rd and 15 to go. Now who's made the bigger play?

    So, rather than worring about whether the yards come before the catch (which is usually the result of the WR being a good route runner who can get open downfield) or after the catch, which of the WRs you've talked about has the best career average?

    Torry Holt 15.0
    Terrell Owens 14.6
    Steve Smith 14.3
    Larry Fitzgerald 13.6
    Anquan Bolding 13.5
    Deion Branch 13.0

    Case closed, you lose, thank you for playing, and buh-bye.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -06-24-2007 at 10:59 PM.

  5. #35
    Roy G. Biv's Avatar
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    which of the WRs you've talked about has the best career average?

    Torry Holt 15.0
    Terrell Owens 14.6
    Steve Smith 14.3
    Larry Fitzgerald 13.6
    Anquan Bolding 13.5
    Deion Branch 13.0
    You left one out, Avenger: Jerry Rice 14.8

    If I may, I believe we have another case of statophobia on our hands. It has run amuck in this country. Just because someone doesn't understand statistics or believe in the value of statistics, they feel a need to discriminate against statistics. They are statophobes. Let me show you some examples of their statophobic hate speech.
    He shows no interest to make plays with the ball in his hands-- AT ALL. In fact, I've seen him leave yardage on the field many times. When Terrell Owens, Anquan Boldin, or Steve Smith catch the ball the play is far from complete-- often times it's just beginning. They maximize every touch they get.
    Notice when faced with statistics standing in direct opposition to their bigoted statophobic viewpoint, they will retort with qualitative (by definition unmeasurable, therefore incomparable) arguments. Why? Because they fear statistics; they are statophobes. Another example:
    Ignore me all you want, but think of Terrell Owens or Steve Smith after the catch, and compare it to Torry Holt. The disparity is great because the former two are playmakers with the ball in their hands where Holt is not.

    Pretend all you want, you know I'm right.
    ad hominum, rightous indignation, straw men, inaccuracies; take your pick, they're all available with statophobes. Everything is available except, of course, facts.

    Guys, statophobes can not be argued with, because they have already made up their little minds and fears the numbers that prove them wrong. If you wish to learn more about statophobes, they have formed their own group: Individuals Dedicated In Opposition To Statistics.

    So you can call them statophobe, or you can call them by their group name, I.D.I.O.T.S., but just don't call them into question. Because they may not feeeeeeel like you do.
    Last edited by Roy G. Biv; -06-26-2007 at 10:16 AM.
    "I'm not going to hide my opinions. They're coming to you between 7000-4000 Angstroms for all the world to see. Oh yes, you will be enlightened."

  6. #36
    Rexi Guest

    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    No, what I know is that you're not very bright.

    YAC is not nearly as important as YPR (yards per reception). Why? Because a "playmaker" is one who (stay with me here, this is going to get a bit complicated) makes plays. Now, let's take two WRs, one catches a 7 yard pass and runs for another 7 yards for a 14 yard gain. Another catches a 12 yard pass and runs for another 3 yards for a 15 yard gain.

    Now... here's where it gets tough... Which WR has made a bigger play? Let me add a factor... let's say its 3rd and 15 to go. Now who's made the bigger play?

    So, rather than worring about whether the yards come before the catch (which is usually the result of the WR being a good route runner who can get open downfield) or after the catch, which of the WRs you've talked about has the best career average?

    Torry Holt 15.0
    Terrell Owens 14.6
    Steve Smith 14.3
    Larry Fitzgerald 13.6
    Anquan Bolding 13.5
    Deion Branch 13.0

    Case closed, you lose, thank you for playing, and buh-bye.
    Uh, YAC is clearly more important (though no statistic is as important as actually WATCHING the games). Why?

    All your YPR stat shows is that Holt can do what's asked of him. He does little more than that though. His higher YPR numbers than that of Terrell Owens, Jerry, Rice, Steve Smith, and Anquan Boldin are a result of playing under Mike Martz for years.

    You plug in Terrell Owens, Jerry Rice, or Steve Smith into the same system for a similar time-span, and you think they post worse YPR stats? I highly doubt that...

    I actually think that if Deion Branch had been in the GSOT in Holt's place his numbers would probably be very similar today.

    I also enjoyed how you didn't actually dispute Holt's inability to make plays with his hands in that post. Where as before it was 'Holt MUST be good after the catch because his career numbers are high'.
    Last edited by Rexi; -06-25-2007 at 01:03 PM.

  7. #37
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Ah, so when in doubt, play the "hypothetical game." Pathetic.

    Maybe the question you should be asking yourself is why receivers like Owens, Smith and Boldin, on average, catch the ball 8-9 yards downfield, while Holt typically catches the ball 11-12 yards downfield. You presume that the other receivers could get open down the field as often as Holt, but you have zilch to back that up.

    The truth is, Holt (like Bruce) is a great route-runner who gets open in the secondary. As a result, he typically catches the ball further downfield, where DBs are in position to make a tackle. The other WRs catch shorter passes in the gap between the LBs and DBs, giving them running room.

    In the end though - on average - Holt GAINES MORE YARDS.

    You are a typical Madden/Sportscenter/Fantasy era fan. You like the "style points."

    Anyone who watches the game knows that the great ones, like Holt, make it look easy. He's Tim Duncan, not Vince Carter.

  8. #38
    EvilXenu's Avatar
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Geez, Rexi, how many times do you need to be owned by every poster on this thread before you stop making your ridiculous argument. Holt is one of the top 2-3 WRs in football and is going to be in the Hall of Fame. If you want to pick on the Rams, there are better targets. You're just making yourself look foolish.
    And you thought Mike Martz was "mad"!

  9. #39
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Uh, YAC is clearly more important (though no statistic is as important as actually WATCHING the games). Why?
    I'm sorry, my man, but this is just foolishness. YAC is only a portion of the total yards covered for each reception.....that is YAC is only a small part of YPR. Have you ever wondered why the players with the highest YACs are running backs? Because they are catching the ball closer to the line of scrimmage. Take Stephen Jackson (who led the league in YAC last year, btw) for example. His YAC was 796 yards or 8.84 per catch. WRs don't get anywhere near that number. Donald Driver led all wideouts with 541 YAC (5.88 per catch). Are you going to tell me Driver is the greatest receiver in the league?

    You mention Owens and Smith. Both in the top 20 for YAC (18th and 11th respectively), but what you don't mention is the top 20 is filled with running backs (14 to be exact). Why? Because nearly every yard they get is YAC. Jackson's 796 YAC make up 98.8% of his total receiving yards.

    If a player has a high YAC, it's not a measure of their greatness as an elite receiver......it simply means they're catching the ball near the line of scrimmage.

    In your world of One Nation Under YAC, the elite receivers would amount to Ladell Betts, Mewelde Moore, Chris Cooley, and Kevin Jones.

    P.S. While we're at it, wouldn't an elite receiver keep his drop ball percentage low?

    Owens 11.18%
    Smith 7.19%
    Holt 3.91%
    Last edited by HUbison; -06-25-2007 at 04:19 PM.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #40
    Rexi Guest

    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Ah, so when in doubt, play the "hypothetical game." Pathetic.

    Maybe the question you should be asking yourself is why receivers like Owens, Smith and Boldin, on average, catch the ball 8-9 yards downfield, while Holt typically catches the ball 11-12 yards downfield. You presume that the other receivers could get open down the field as often as Holt, but you have zilch to back that up.

    The truth is, Holt (like Bruce) is a great route-runner who gets open in the secondary. As a result, he typically catches the ball further downfield, where DBs are in position to make a tackle. The other WRs catch shorter passes in the gap between the LBs and DBs, giving them running room.

    In the end though - on average - Holt GAINES MORE YARDS.

    You are a typical Madden/Sportscenter/Fantasy era fan. You like the "style points."

    Anyone who watches the game knows that the great ones, like Holt, make it look easy. He's Tim Duncan, not Vince Carter.
    Psh, they all run the routes designed for them (well except for Randy Moss lol). Torry Holt isn't much more effective at getting open than supremely talented players like Steve Smith and Terrell Owens. They just all haven't had the advantage of playing in a genius scheme like Holt and Bruce have. I mean seriously (OH NOES!!!11 more hypotheticals) you line up Terrell Owens and Steve Smith in the GSOT in Holt and Bruce's place and you're going to tell me the don't top their production over the years with a straight face?

  11. #41
    Rexi Guest

    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    I'm sorry, my man, but this is just foolishness. YAC is only a portion of the total yards covered for each reception.....that is YAC is only a small part of YPR. Have you ever wondered why the players with the highest YACs are running backs? Because they are catching the ball closer to the line of scrimmage. Take Stephen Jackson (who led the league in YAC last year, btw) for example. His YAC was 796 yards or 8.84 per catch. WRs don't get anywhere near that number. Donald Driver led all wideouts with 541 YAC (5.88 per catch). Are you going to tell me Driver is the greatest receiver in the league?

    You mention Owens and Smith. Both in the top 20 for YAC (18th and 11th respectively), but what you don't mention is the top 20 is filled with running backs (14 to be exact). Why? Because nearly every yard they get is YAC. Jackson's 796 YAC make up 98.8% of his total receiving yards.

    If a player has a high YAC, it's not a measure of their greatness as an elite receiver......it simply means they're catching the ball near the line of scrimmage.

    In your world of One Nation Under YAC, the elite receivers would amount to Ladell Betts, Mewelde Moore, Chris Cooley, and Kevin Jones.

    P.S. While we're at it, wouldn't an elite receiver keep his drop ball percentage low?

    Owens 11.18%
    Smith 7.19%
    Holt 3.91%
    Well I thought I made it clear that I don't place a lot of stock in ANY stat. I only said YAC is more valuable when it comes to WR's alone. Leaving RB's out of it (of course). But I never alledged anything resembling "One Nation Under YAC". So your post for the most part a waste of time.

  12. #42
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Your continuous blathering is a waste of time. Please allow others to post on the original topic - which, for those who forgot, is the Preseason All-NFC West Team. You've spend enough time making your argument. You have failed to prove your point objectively, and nobody here shares your subjective opinions. Learn when to quit, dude.

  13. #43
    Roy G. Biv's Avatar
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    Well I thought I made it clear that I don't place a lot of stock in ANY stat. I only said YAC is more valuable when it comes to WR's alone. Leaving RB's out of it (of course). But I never alledged anything resembling "One Nation Under YAC". So your post for the most part a waste of time.
    I'm with you Rexi. You did make it very clear that you don't care about stats. I.D.I.O.T.S. never put value in stats, and as a loyal statophobe certainly you don't either. You made it clear, these guys just don't listen, do they.

    And that guy's post was a waste of time. It was nothing but numbers, statistics, and sensible reasoning. No way would I.D.I.O.T.S. like you ever have need for that.

    Statistics, commen sense, reasoning, absolute waste of time when dealing with I.D.I.O.T.S.
    "I'm not going to hide my opinions. They're coming to you between 7000-4000 Angstroms for all the world to see. Oh yes, you will be enlightened."

  14. #44
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AV
    Please allow others to post on the original topic - which, for those who forgot, is the Preseason All-NFC West Team.
    In an attempt to get back to serious discussion.....

    I think the most under-valued unit in the NFL is the Seahawks O Line. Yes, they lost Hutch, but one would think he was the sum total of that line if one were to believe the commentators last year. Just my opinion, but Jones is still one of the best in the business; Spencer is the best young Center in the game, and Gray and Locklear are both solid though at opposite ends of their career. Maybe the other G spot is a bit of a question, but either Pork Chop or Sims will hold that spot adequately.

    If Alexander is healthy, that O will be better than they're getting credit for.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  15. #45
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    Well I thought I made it clear that I don't place a lot of stock in ANY stat. I only said YAC is more valuable when it comes to WR's alone. Leaving RB's out of it (of course). But I never alledged anything resembling "One Nation Under YAC". So your post for the most part a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    Yeah but his runs after the catch are through open space with few defenders in position to tackle him. Ignore me all you want, but think of Terrell Owens or Steve Smith after the catch, and compare it to Torry Holt. The disparity is great because the former two are playmakers with the ball in their hands where Holt is not.

    Pretend all you want, you know I'm right.
    You I.D.I.O.T., your pointless argument was concerning Torry Holt as a playmaker (as dumb as that sounds). Torry Holt would have already maneuvered his way through the secondary through pure route running, he doesn't need rely on his speed as much as these other guys, who for the most part are faster. You claim that you take stock in no stat in particular, yet you keep trying to compare his YAC to Smith, Owens, etc. Now you have been proved wrong again, say not to count running backs and can't back up what you're saying about Torry Holt being a playmaker, you just keep saying to compare him to tapes of Smith and Co. Torry has been able to get past defenders and thus lead the league in receiving. He doesn't have to rely on speed like Moss. Those big plays he makes are from burning defenders. Holt is able to do this without gamebreaking spead, remains among the top in the league in yardage and all you have is your mindless opinion to back it up. As stated before everyone on this post has owned you, and while you may retain your own opinion don't bash on someone else's unless you can back it up, you've been seriously wrong with most of what you've said. Anyone can say that anyone sucks with little reasoning.
    Last edited by prof22693; -06-28-2007 at 11:41 PM.

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