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  1. #46
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Great list. good job.

    i think Larry Fitzgerald is better than Boldin, but he was hurt last year and it is hard to make a good case for it, other than he scored more TDs in less games. Bruce had a good a season as Boldin did.

    as much as it pains me to post this: i think Gore has a slight edge on Jackson. if you look at running. all purpose yardage and recieveing Jackson dominates, but Gore is a better runner.

    TEs: im a stl rams fan, i learned this position existed this year! LOL


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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Oh, I'm gone for a couple of days and now everyone has the nerve speak up, lol. Throw out all the stats you want, I don't give a rats about it. A number does not take into account the numerous other factors that play into football like a minor thing called *ahem* SCHEME, or the personnel surrounding a player. You can't just look at a number and leave it at that or else you'd have to admit that players like Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, and Mike Anderson are all great running backs. Hell, Jeff f'n Garcia has broken records held by Joe Montana and Steve Young, does that mean anything? Not really...

    You have to watch a player, and focus on them closely while trying to be unbiased in your view. And when I watch Torry Holt, I see a player with outstanding hands and ball adjustment skills, and little else. I respect what he does do well, but he's not the package that some other great receivers I've mentioned are. And you can't even see routes on TV, so I take all those comments with a grain of salt. You can only see how crisp a receiver is going in and out of their breaks.

    It's not really a complete matter of natural physical talent either. Torry Holt isn't extremely physically talented like Randy Moss or Steve Smith, but neither is Terrell Owens or Anquan Boldin. What separates the ladder two from Torry Holt or Marvin Harrison is that Owens/Boldin are tenacious with a playmaking mindset when the ball is in their hands. Holt and Harrison are not. It's an important dimension to a receiver that they don't possess, or aren't interested in.

    Is it that hard to understand why I feel the way I do?

  3. #48
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    Thumbs down Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by big_country78 View Post
    as much as it pains me to post this: i think Gore has a slight edge on Jackson. if you look at running. all purpose yardage and recieveing Jackson dominates, but Gore is a better runner.
    See, the Gore/Jackson comparison is interesting because they are both such great players. They both run with INCREDIBLE power, and they both catch the ball out of the backfield beautifully. Jackson definately brings more speed, but I'd agree that Gore is the more natural runner (vision). They both make plenty of guys miss also.

    The Niners @ Rams game this year was like a classic duel between the two, they both put up great performances.

  4. #49
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    Oh, I'm gone for a couple of days and now everyone has the nerve speak up, lol. Throw out all the stats you want, I don't give a rats about it. A number does not take into account the numerous other factors that play into football like a minor thing called *ahem* SCHEME, or the personnel surrounding a player. You can't just look at a number and leave it at that or else you'd have to admit that players like Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, and Mike Anderson are all great running backs. Hell, Jeff f'n Garcia has broken records held by Joe Montana and Steve Young, does that mean anything? Not really...

    You have to watch a player, and focus on them closely while trying to be unbiased in your view. And when I watch Torry Holt, I see a player with outstanding hands and ball adjustment skills, and little else. I respect what he does do well, but he's not the package that some other great receivers I've mentioned are. And you can't even see routes on TV, so I take all those comments with a grain of salt. You can only see how crisp a receiver is going in and out of their breaks.

    It's not really a complete matter of natural physical talent either. Torry Holt isn't extremely physically talented like Randy Moss or Steve Smith, but neither is Terrell Owens or Anquan Boldin. What separates the ladder two from Torry Holt or Marvin Harrison is that Owens/Boldin are tenacious with a playmaking mindset when the ball is in their hands. Holt and Harrison are not. It's an important dimension to a receiver that they don't possess, or aren't interested in.

    Is it that hard to understand why I feel the way I do?
    You are a Niner fan. We are Rams fans. As a result, I think its safe to say we've seen far more Rams games than you have. Given that fact, and given the fact that none of us agree with your characterization of Holt, maybe you should consider the possibility that you are simply wrong.

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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Throw out all the stats you want, I don't give a rats about it.
    Let's see; where have I read this before? Hmm. You don't happen to have multiple accounts on here, do you rexi?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #51
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    Oh, I'm gone for a couple of days and now everyone has the nerve speak up, lol. Throw out all the stats you want, I don't give a rats about it. A number does not take into account the numerous other factors that play into football like a minor thing called *ahem* SCHEME, or the personnel surrounding a player. You can't just look at a number and leave it at that or else you'd have to admit that players like Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, and Mike Anderson are all great running backs. Hell, Jeff f'n Garcia has broken records held by Joe Montana and Steve Young, does that mean anything? Not really...

    You have to watch a player, and focus on them closely while trying to be unbiased in your view. And when I watch Torry Holt, I see a player with outstanding hands and ball adjustment skills, and little else. I respect what he does do well, but he's not the package that some other great receivers I've mentioned are. And you can't even see routes on TV, so I take all those comments with a grain of salt. You can only see how crisp a receiver is going in and out of their breaks.

    It's not really a complete matter of natural physical talent either. Torry Holt isn't extremely physically talented like Randy Moss or Steve Smith, but neither is Terrell Owens or Anquan Boldin. What separates the ladder two from Torry Holt or Marvin Harrison is that Owens/Boldin are tenacious with a playmaking mindset when the ball is in their hands. Holt and Harrison are not. It's an important dimension to a receiver that they don't possess, or aren't interested in.

    Is it that hard to understand why I feel the way I do?
    FYI, T.O. has been known as being one of the strongest receivers.

    How many times do we have to say it, you don't have to run through people or run around across the field if you can already beat them down it by route running.

    And yes it is hard to understand your point of view. For someone who takes stats likely, I think it's safe to say if someone breaks a record, it doesnt matter how they do it, but the fact they broke a record speaks for itself (i.e., Jeff Garcia). Though I am curious about which records he did break...

    So basically you've said you can't be biased towards someone and to ignore stats, yet you claim Torry Holt is not a playmaker like Johnson,smith, etc. The fact he has obtained those records shows he has demonstrated play-making ability.

  7. #52
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    he's not called "big game" for nothing. he's clutch. he has some of the best hands out there. some guys are possesion recievers, they get a lot of receptions, and move the chains. IMHO they are more important than long play scoring WRs. its shouldn't be the offenses main priority to score ASAP, but to use the clock move down the field and eventually score.

  8. #53
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    You are a Niner fan. We are Rams fans. As a result, I think its safe to say we've seen far more Rams games than you have. Given that fact, and given the fact that none of us agree with your characterization of Holt, maybe you should consider the possibility that you are simply wrong.
    I'm not. No one has seriously disputed the fact that Holt is absolutely unconcerned with making plays after the catch.

  9. #54
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by prof22693 View Post
    FYI, T.O. has been known as being one of the strongest receivers.

    How many times do we have to say it, you don't have to run through people or run around across the field if you can already beat them down it by route running.

    And yes it is hard to understand your point of view. For someone who takes stats likely, I think it's safe to say if someone breaks a record, it doesnt matter how they do it, but the fact they broke a record speaks for itself (i.e., Jeff Garcia). Though I am curious about which records he did break...

    So basically you've said you can't be biased towards someone and to ignore stats, yet you claim Torry Holt is not a playmaker like Johnson,smith, etc. The fact he has obtained those records shows he has demonstrated play-making ability.
    As I said, routes are invisible on TV. So what are you basing that off of?

    And you are sayng how a player breaks a record doesn't matter? What if 'said record-breaker' is playing behind an elite line? Or an innovative system? Products of the system do occur, and sometimes they break records in the process.

    Not a hard concept to grasp.

  10. #55
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    As I said, routes are invisible on TV. So what are you basing that off of?

    And you are sayng how a player breaks a record doesn't matter? What if 'said record-breaker' is playing behind an elite line? Or an innovative system? Products of the system do occur, and sometimes they break records in the process.

    Not a hard concept to grasp.
    Sounds like you just summed up Jerry Rice's career in SF. Does that mean he's not one of the best recievers of all time? Obviously the answer is no.

    Rexi if you're still in school, you really should take a debate class, cause you really suck at this.

  11. #56
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexi View Post
    As I said, routes are invisible on TV. So what are you basing that off of?

    And you are sayng how a player breaks a record doesn't matter? What if 'said record-breaker' is playing behind an elite line? Or an innovative system? Products of the system do occur, and sometimes they break records in the process.

    Not a hard concept to grasp.
    Then if Martz was such a genius to think up the GSOT its almost calling all other schemers stupid. QBs know if their receivers are great route-runners, ask warner, bulger, martz, etc. and they will tell you how good he is at breaking loose. It's dumb to pretty much say"he's already in open space and past defenders" and not calling him a playmaker becuase he doesn't have to run around other people all over the place because HE ALEADY GOT PAST THEM GENIUS, IF THERE ARE SO MANY RECEIVERS LIKE HOLT THAN WHY AREN'T OTHER TEAMS IN SOME 'GENIUS' SCHEMES? You can't put deion branch in his place as stated before, that's just ridiculous.
    Last edited by prof22693; -07-22-2007 at 09:17 PM.

  12. #57
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    With the main FA rush and the draft done, its time for my annual Preseason All-NFC West Team. As always, rookies are not eligible for the starting team, but can get a mention as "up and coming" players on offense and defense.

    So, without further adieu... here's the list:

    QB: Marc Bulger, Rams
    This one was easy. Bulger has pulled ahead of Matt Hasselbeck, while Alex Smith and Matt Leinart are both still in the developmental stage.
    Up and coming: Matt Leinart, Cardinals


    While Hass may be on the decline, he hasn't regressed that far. Give him a consistent O-line to stand behind and he is money. If he is running for his life every play, then you get what you get. But I guess that is the same with every QB. Bulger and Hass are even.

    RB: (tie) Steven Jackson, Rams; Frank Gore, Niners
    I don’t typically like to give ties, but here there’s little choice. Both Jackson and Gore had phenomenal years. If healthy, Shaun Alexander could make it a three way tie. Edgerrin James has lost a step.
    Up and coming: Brian Leonard, Rams


    Man, this division is stacked at RB. Really, how do you choose. Shaun was injured, Edge has no O-line. Gore just got injured, and Jackson has to play in StL. It's really a toss up.

    FB: Mack Strong, Seahawks
    Still one of the league’s best lead blockers, even at age 35.
    Up and coming: Moran Norris, Niners


    No arguments here. Strong is far and away the best in the division, even when he has an off year. Look out for another Seahawk at this position this year, Leonard Weaver.


    WR: Torry Holt, Rams; Anquan Boldin, Cardinals
    The Rams and Cardinals are very strong at the WR spot, while the Niners and Seahawks are lagging behind. Drew Bennett gives the Rams one of the top #3 WRs in football.
    Up and coming: Larry Fitzgerald, Cardinals


    Granted, the Seahawks and Niners really lag here. And I can't argue with your pick here. Holt will torch anyone one any day, whenever he wants to. But to say that the Seahawks are too far back is a lie. An up and comer from the Hawks (I don't consider Fitz an up-and comer cause he's an already here) is DJ Hackett. Also look out for Lelie from the Niners, he's finally in a system that fits him, and should be excellent.


    TE: Randy McMichael, Rams
    Not a particularly strong position in the Division. McMichael has been very productive in past years, and did well under Linehan in Miami.
    Up and coming: Vernon Davis, Niners


    Man, is every team weak at TE in this division that the best TE we have is Randy McMichael...that's pathetic. Davis should be the dominant force at TE this year for all TE's in the division.


    OT: Walter Jones, Seahawks; Orlando Pace, Rams
    Jones had a down year, and Pace suffered an injury, but these two veterans are still the cream of the crop.
    Up and coming: Levi Brown, Cardinals


    Jones has lost a step. But that means that he is only two steps better than the best OT's in the game. Pace, is a distant second.


    OG: Larry Allen, Niners; Chris Gray, Seahawks
    These vets probably won’t be on this list next year, but they haven’t quite been knocked off the top yet.
    Up and coming: Richie Incognito, Rams


    Chris Gray won't even be starting for the Hawks this year. He'll be the versatile back-up. Look out for Ray "Big Die Slow" Willis at RG. He is better and hasn't lost as many steps. His issue is he is too big for your average G, and has problems being confined in the interior of the line. He is a better tackle. But the Hawks already have too many tackle without enough guards.

    C: Chris Spencer, Seahawks
    Almost a default choice, as none of the teams in the Division had stability at this position last year.
    Up and coming: Brett Romberg, Rams


    Spencer is finally making line calls for the Hawks. We are all so excited for him. He should be a pro-bowler soon. We hope.


    DE: Leonard Little, Rams; Bryant Young, Niners
    Little by far the best DE in the Division. Young still has some life left. Newcomers Patrick Kerney and James Hall could factor in this equation, as could a healthy Bert Berry.
    Up and coming: Darryl Tapp, Seahawks


    Little is far and away the class of the division...but Kerney will give him a run for his money if he can stay healthy. If Tapp can find PT, he could record 7 or 8 sacks this year.

    DT: Darnell Dockett, Cardinals; Rocky Bernard, Seahawks
    Neither had a great year in 2006, but both have been fairly consistent performers. Still, with the run defenses in this Division, this is hardly a strength position.
    Up and coming: Adam Carriker, Rams


    Rocky is only good when he has Marcus Tubbs lined up next to him. Tubbs makes that D-line go in Seattle. He is the space eater that teams have to put an extra half body on. WIthout Tubbs, everything soffered on Seattle's D-Line. If Tubbs is healthy, he will be the defensive standout...he may not put up numbers, but he will create big holes.

    OLB: Julian Peterson, Seahawks; Karlos Dansby, Cardinals
    Peterson was one of the best FA acquisitions in 2006. Dansby is on the verge of being a Pro Bowl player.
    Up and coming: Patrick Willis, Niners


    Peterson is a freak. All muscle. Should be better with Kerney lined up on the line, and the LB's knowing their role this year.


    MLB: (tie) Lofa Tatupu, Seahawks; Will Witherspoon, Rams
    Another tie. Once again, I just couldn’t separate the two. I will say, however, that I think Witherspoon has the higher ceiling.
    Up and coming: Gerald Hayes, Cardinals


    Don't sleep on Lofa. Really, his defensive leadership is unparalled.

    CB: Nate Clements, Niners; Walt Harris, Niners
    With their free agent prize, the Niners have the top pair of CBs in the Division. Marcus Trufant is close, but did not perform up to par last year.
    Up and coming: Tye Hill, Rams


    Good pick-up by the niners this off-season. Their corners should be really tough to pass on this year. Really, they are going to have a nice secondary down there.

    SS: Adrian Wilson, Cardinals
    May be the top player at his position in the entire league. Certainly the best DB blitzer.
    Up and coming: Michael Lewis, Niners


    Uggh. Nothing I can say here. The niners and Cards really have great secondaries.

    FS: Deon Grant, Seahawks
    Veteran had some good years in Carolina and Jacksonville, and was brought in to solidify Seattle’s DB.
    Up and coming: O.J. Atogwe, Rams


    Grant is melding well with SS Brian Russell. Per reports, they are diagnosing plays before they even happen. I don't know if I would put him at the top of the league until he plays for the Hawks, but I won't argue.

    K.: Jeff Wilkins, Rams
    Seattle’s Josh Brown had some clutch kicks (as the Rams know too well), and Neil Rackers and Joe Nedny had great years, but Wilkins (32/37 FGs, 35/35 PATs, 131 points) is just money.


    So many good kickers. I think I would take Rackers over any of them. Really, if that guy got more chances he would easily be the top K in the game. Crazy accurate from any range. Brown performs really well in the clutch, he has ice water running through his veins. Wilkins has been steady for so long, it's tough to choose.

    P: Ryan Plackemeier, Seahawks
    Rookie had the best gross and net average in the Division.

    GUS THE MULE. It's hard to argue with his numbers. Plus he had a 70+ yard punt in one game.

    KR: Maurice Hicks, Niners
    Earned his keep as Gore’s backup and on special teams.

    PR: Dante Hall, Rams
    His performance slipped in recent years in KC, but he’s still a guy that opposing teams kick away from.

    And, of course, the all important tally...

    Rams: 9
    Seahawks: 9
    Niners: 6
    Cardinals: 4

    See above regular colored letters.

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  13. #58
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Pace isn't a distant second to anybody. What people tend to discount is the "degree of difficulty" for a LT playing the Martz system. Pace was constantly put on an island to block DEs on plays in which everyone knew the Rams were going to throw the ball. That is a much more difficult job than playing in an offense like Seattle's that runs the ball first, and uses much more of a short passing game. The pressure on the LT under Linehan is not as extreme, but the Rams are still a pass-first offense.

    No disrespect to Jones, who has been and still is a great player, but there is no legitimate basis whatsoever to put him above Pace.

  14. #59
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    I mean if you want to go and look at who are the best players at each position that's really tough to say on a few positions. But I will give you my feedback. Here's the depth Chart.
    QB 1)Marc Bulger

  15. #60
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    Re: Av's 2007 Preseason All-NFC West Team

    Amazing ...

    This I.D.I.O.T. Holt basher is quite the fool ...

    You have to have HANDS to play in Mike Martz's system. Quick slants, 25 yard deep outs, skinny posts ...

    Put T.O. in that system, and he'd live up to his name ... TO .... for the numbers of turnovers he'd be responsible for by darts flying off his hands ...

    Steve Smith, how many WR screens does this guy catch a year? 20 or 30? Most of his YAC comes right there ...

    I guess S. Jackson is the greatest WR of all time and he's not even a WR. Caught 90 balls and had like 780 YAC ....

    If you had the following two options, which would you take:

    1. Run a pristine route 16 yards down field, catch the pass, and gain 2 additional yards.

    2. Run an underneath route for 4 yards, run 14 yards down field ....

    Same gain and I'll take it the right way.

    T.O. is a middle pack receiver, not elite by any means at this stage in his career ...

    Watch Torry Holt a few games before you say he's just hands ....

    Steve Smith is the most overrated WR in the league. What has he really done in his career to warrant the hype?

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