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  1. #1
    Shadesofgrey's Avatar
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    Coincidence??? I think not.

    Tiki you owe MM a big thank you for letting Warner come on board. Warner knows how to check down to his skill backs and the Stats prove it.

    Giants running back Tiki Barber piled up 70 rushing yards and 102 receiving yards in Sunday's loss to the Lions. He now owns 647 rushing yards and 342 receiving yards on the season, which put him on pace to finish the season with 2,637 total yards. Rams' running back Marshall Faulk set the NFL record with 2,429 total yards in 1999. Barber is also on pace for 13 total touchdowns, which would be a career-high.


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    sbramfan is offline Registered User
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Warner also is one of the best at leading the RB on the check down, not just throwing it "over there" when no one is open.

  3. #3
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Coincidence? I think so.


    Warner has had little or nothing to do with Barber's success. Rather, he has been successful because (1) he has a new coach that really likes to run the ball and throw to the backs and (2) he has finally managed to control his fumble-itis.

    If anything, Warner has derived a benefit from Barber.

    Nice try.

  4. #4
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Tiki Barber's average year since becoming a starter:
    ---1155 rushing yards, 6 rushing TD, 72 receptions, 607 rec. yards, 9 fumbles
    This year projected out:
    ---1727 rushing yards, 11 rushing TD, 69 receptions, 913 rec. yards, 3 fumbles

    Conclude as you will, but it appears to me that he is just hitting the ground better and hanging on to the ball. His yards per reception is up, but his number of receptions should be about average for him.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  5. #5
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    NFL Live did a pretty good comparison of Tiki and Ahman Green earlier this year when Green was coughing up the ball and Tiki wasn't. Tiki used to hold the ball at a 45 degree angle while running, thus giving defenses an easy shot at swiping the ball out of his grasp. Exactly what Green was doing earlier this year.

    If you watch Tiki now, he has the ball tucked up his chest at a 90 degree angle. Very difficult for teams to swipe the ball out of his hand.

    Not sure how much Warner had to do with that seeing his stats, but Coughlin had a major impact on Tiki Barber.

  6. #6
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    "1) he has a new coach that really likes to run the ball and throw to the backs" Maybe my memory serves me wrong, but I thought the Giants had always played a smashmouth form of football. Warner's accuracy freezes DB's and opens up the ground game. It also freezes LB's which allows Tiki to come open underneath. You're entitled to your opinion of KW, but I'm entitled to mine to and I think yours smells of Bulgerite bias..weiner

  7. #7
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Think what you want. I don't really care about the Giants.

  8. #8
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadesofgrey
    "1) he has a new coach that really likes to run the ball and throw to the backs" Maybe my memory serves me wrong, but I thought the Giants had always played a smashmouth form of football. Warner's accuracy freezes DB's and opens up the ground game. It also freezes LB's which allows Tiki to come open underneath. You're entitled to your opinion of KW, but I'm entitled to mine to and I think yours smells of Bulgerite bias..weiner
    Actually, a couple years ago when the Giants went to the Super Bowl....Collins was slinging the ball all around the field. They really haven't played much smash mouth football in the last few years. Dayne couldn't carry the rock and Tiki would always fumble.

  9. #9
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Shades, you realize a good number of Barber's receiving yards are from screen plays that he breaks open for big runs, right?

  10. #10
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Warner and Barber have been mutually beneficial for each other, no question in my mind. I have watched all the Giant games this year and they look to have a great chemistry and are always on the same page.
    Last edited by r8rh8rmike; -10-26-2004 at 07:42 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Of course the quarterback helps the running back succeed in the Giants' scheme, but Tiki has always produced. He's been their biggest playmaker for years and they know how to get him the ball in the passing game. The most drastic improvement to his game, like others said, has been in the running department, under the "fumblitis" category. Shoot, he's fixed that. Now the Giants are even more confident in him, and as a result, he is even more productive. Does Warner have to do a good job in order for Tiki to have such an impact on the game? Yes, and he has done a good job. But if outside factors were the main reason for Tiki's improvement, I think it'd have to do more with the improvement in the offensive line than at quarterback. I like Kurt Warner and I'm not surprised at how well he's done overall, but you've gotta admit, the Giants aren't asking him to do much.
    Last edited by evil disco man; -10-26-2004 at 08:39 PM.

  12. #12
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    I was going to keep quiet on Warner, especially after the abismal performance last Sunday. But, since everyone seems to be having a nice little conversation on the subject I thought I'd join in.

    1. Warner and Tiki have been getting along really well on the field and the stats illustrate that. Warner's ypa is among the league's best, due in large part to Tiki's rac.

    2. The downside in the Giants' offensive scheme right now is that the wr's are starting to become a non-factor. Warner has absolutely no feel for Toomer at this point, constantly missing on long passes down the field. It leads me to believe that Toomer is one of the slower wr's in the NFL right now a la Tim Brown, Keshawn, etc. The reason I say this is because Warner hasn't shown the same kind of inaccuracy with his other receivers. From Shockey to Carter to Hilliard his deep throws have been pretty accurate. Even the new wr replacing Carter had two catches last week.

    3. Warner is still too stubborn or unable to protect the ball while in the pocket. I don't know what the problem is here. Coughlin has virtually re-created Tiki by teaching him how to protect the ball but Warner still likes to leave it hanging out there when the pass rush is closing in. I have to assume that this is just part of Warner's "style" and it will always be a problem.

    4. Warner has looked very...hesitant(?) in the pocket at times. I don't have the right footage of the game to identify whether it's Warner not finding an open receiver or if the receivers aren't getting open. Of course, I would like to think that Warner is choosing to hang on to the ball rather than force it to a covered receiver but I just don't know. In the red zone Warner has really struggled this year and I don't know why. This leads me to my final point-

    5. Coughlin needs to open up the offense for Warner. Not in the sense of changing what they've been doing so much but letting Warner be a little more liberal with what he's doing. My guess, at this point, is that Warner is wound so tight in regards to turning the ball over than he can't just drop back and "feel it". The interception in the end zone last week is a good example of this to me. He made a good scramble to give himself more time, made a good "recognition" to spot Toomer in the back corner of the end zone, but then tried to guide the ball to Toomer instead of zipping it in there. It hung up there and got picked.

    I think Coughlin has done a good job of managing games and protecting his players (Warner and Tiki) up to this point but I think it's time to push them out of the nest and see if they can "fly". A qb can't constantly be worried about making a mistake and I think that's the boat that Warner's in right now. A nice combination of Martz's philosophy (toned down a bit) and Coughlin's philosophy (stepped up a bit) would fit Warner to a tee right now.

  13. #13
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    From Shockey to Carter to Hilliard his deep throws have been pretty accurate. Even the new wr replacing Carter had two catches last week.
    I haven't had the time to watch recent footage, but earlier highlights this season were really impressive in terms of him hitting guys on deep fly routes.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I have to assume that this is just part of Warner's "style" and it will always be a problem.
    I wonder if his past in the Arena League had anything to do with this. I'm not sure why, but I'm just throwing it out there.

  14. #14
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    I don't even think the Arena League finds it acceptable to leave the ball so unprotected. This is definitely a knock on Kurt Warner in my opinion. There's really no way to justify him hanging the ball out there on such a consistant basis.

    I'm guessing that it feels, to him, like his arm is in more of a "****ed" (c o c k e d)position, ready to make a play at the last possible moment. With all the collapsing pockets that he's in I just don't think it's justified.

    When the play is designed to be a quick throw(slant, slot/wr screen, blitz adjustment, etc.) or a screen or a deliberate play(deep pass, out pattern, etc.) his throws seem to be very accurate and crisp. If there's a break down or he has to get too creative things start to luck very unpolished.

    Hopefully, he's still a work in progress, so to speak and will continue to improve. He wasn't the only one having a bad game last week so I think the team, in general, was suffering from the bye week doldrums. In reality, it's Warner's first real step backward since starting for the Giants. Every other week he's been progressing (GRADUALLY) so I don't want to get down on him too much for having an off week.

    Coughlin has said that his plan is to implement changes/improvements for the Giants is in 5 game stages so I think that may have something to do with it too. I don't know exactly what, but you could tell that everything wasn't really flowing for the Giants against the Lions.

  15. #15
    Shadesofgrey's Avatar
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    Re: Coincidence??? I think not.

    Warner had an 89.1% passer rating vs. the Lions...how was that a down game?

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