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Thread: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    Jonathan Martin doesn't come off as anywhere near 100% mentally healthy either.
    I don't think I'd be too mentally stable either if I went to work for a year and a half and had to deal with people saying things like (copied from another press release by Martin's lawyer):

    “We are going to run train on your sister. . . . She loves me. I am going to f–k her without a condom and c** in her c***.”




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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    That's the way it looks to me as well. Apparently, Martin went to the Dolphins GM to complain about the situation, and the GM told him to punch Incognito in the mouth. Maybe he should have tried that.
    But isn't the point here that he shouldn't have to coldcock one of his linemates in order to be respected when he is performing well on the field?

    It sounds like Martin may not have been quite as tough-skinned, having not grown up in a culture where your people tend to interact in a way that is more emotionally supportive, rather than in a culture where everybody is expected to give as good as they get and you don't take it personally. It's practically a "Remember the Titans" type movie storyline, except instead of bridging the cultural gap and bonding, the ringleader bullies a younger player into seeking therapy while others start leaking complaints about being used as ATMs by the veterans. Look at the way none of his teammates stuck up for him when he left the team--even before he went public with the criticism of Incognito--and small wonder he felt isolated. Given the millions that Martin stood to make in the NFL, you have to think it wasn't about trying to win a big lawsuit for him.

    The coaches shouldn't have let it get this far. Now they're out two healthy linemen and are the talk of the NFL in all the wrong ways. Way to go, coach.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    But isn't the point here that he shouldn't have to coldcock one of his linemates in order to be respected when he is performing well on the field?
    I was actually being facetious.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    jon stewart from the daily show nailed this situation

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Yet the Dolphins lockerroom, both black and white, are lining up in support of the guy.

    I think any Rams fan knows that RI has his issues. I just hate seeing a lockerroom issue being adjudicated by columnists, reporters, and others that have never set a toe in the lockerroom.
    The problem is, the situation was taken out of the locker room with private voice mails and texts, which reportedly involved threats. It's easy for players to support Incognito when they're basing that support on what actually happened in the locker room, without knowing how things escalated beyond that inner circle.

    IMO, the fact that this whole thing got way out of control justifies any outside adjudication.
    Last edited by r8rh8rmike; -11-08-2013 at 03:04 PM.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    I was actually being facetious.
    Ah, it can be hard to tell, since apparently the entire Dolphins team would have totally agreed with him.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    The problem is, the situation was taken out of the locker room with private voice mails and texts, which reportedly involved threats. It's easy for players to support Incognito when they're basing that support on what actually happened in the locker room, without knowing how things escalated beyond that inner circle.

    IMO, the fact that this whole thing got way out of control justifies any outside adjudication.
    According to all reports, the players did know about, joked about, and laughed with Martin as he played it for teammates. I've yet to see anything that the players weren't aware of. I know everyone wants to convict Incognito for what appears to be something that is entirely unacceptable in our culture. But I don't think any part of this can be judged by our culture, when the entire event (until Martin played the voicemail for his parents) was conducted within the confines of a uniquely different subculture......the NFL locker room.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    According to all reports, the players did know about, joked about, and laughed with Martin as he played it for teammates. I've yet to see anything that the players weren't aware of. I know everyone wants to convict Incognito for what appears to be something that is entirely unacceptable in our culture. But I don't think any part of this can be judged by our culture, when the entire event (until Martin played the voicemail for his parents) was conducted within the confines of a uniquely different subculture......the NFL locker room.
    Like all stories of this nature, there will be plenty of twists and turns. I've read that Martin sent the same types of voice mails to Incognito, which can all be positively verified. So we'll see.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    That's the way it looks to me as well. Apparently, Martin went to the Dolphins GM to complain about the situation, and the GM told him to punch Incognito in the mouth. Maybe he should have tried that.
    Would you punch a violently unstable guy with anger management issues in the mouth?

    That's a fireable offense if the GM is actually suggesting that method of conflict resolution.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    Would you punch a violently unstable guy with anger management issues in the mouth?

    That's a fireable offense if the GM is actually suggesting that method of conflict resolution.
    Again, I was being facetious in my response. Punching an unstable psychopath in the mouth certainly would not be a good idea, and as you stated, would not resolve the situation.

    As far as the GM telling Martin to punch Incognito in the mouth, I'm thinking he was most likely not being literal, but trying to make the point to toughen up.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    To me, this comes down to an issue of immaturity and lack of leadership.

    I'm certain that every NFL locker room has guys who would, if left to their own devices, turn the "workplace" into something resembling a fraternity's "rush" period. People who think that hazing is a necessary right of passage and an effective means of bonding with teammates.

    There's a word for a person who does not share this mindset: adult.

    Jonathan Martin is an adult. Perhaps he is an overly sensitive adult, but he is an adult.

    Richie Incognito is an overgrown child. He may be a popular kid, but he's still a child.

    The Dolphins' leadership should have known that the children were in charge in the locker room, and should have put a stop to their nonsense. By failing to do so, they created a situation in which an adult like Martin could not subsist.

    So the best advice I can give the Miami Dolphins is: grow up.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    To me, this comes down to an issue of immaturity and lack of leadership.

    I'm certain that every NFL locker room has guys who would, if left to their own devices, turn the "workplace" into something resembling a fraternity's "rush" period. People who think that hazing is a necessary right of passage and an effective means of bonding with teammates.

    There's a word for a person who does not share this mindset: adult.

    Jonathan Martin is an adult. Perhaps he is an overly sensitive adult, but he is an adult.

    Richie Incognito is an overgrown child. He may be a popular kid, but he's still a child.

    The Dolphins' leadership should have known that the children were in charge in the locker room, and should have put a stop to their nonsense. By failing to do so, they created a situation in which an adult like Martin could not subsist.

    So the best advice I can give the Miami Dolphins is: grow up.
    AV, we agree on dang near everything. Except this.

    It's a "workplace" in so much as these guys get paid. But that's where the comparison stops. It is neat and tidy to view the playing field, practice field, and locker room as some sort of standard office setting, but I just don't think that's how any NFL team does or even can operate. Their job is to go out and inflict physical damage to other grown men. In another thread, someone said there's no relationship with "crazy and violent". ALL of these guys are some level of "crazy and violent". Owners pay extra for "crazy and violent". Ultimately, I just don't think we can judge this subculture on the same measure as the rest of us in the standard corporate atmosphere. As I said earlier, it's vile and disgusting to us. But to them, this is just SOP. Without malice or harmful intent. But for whatever reason, Martin (who appears to be a participant in this activity) couldn't handle it.

    I just think there's been a rush to judgement on this.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    AV, we agree on dang near everything. Except this.

    It's a "workplace" in so much as these guys get paid. But that's where the comparison stops. It is neat and tidy to view the playing field, practice field, and locker room as some sort of standard office setting, but I just don't think that's how any NFL team does or even can operate. Their job is to go out and inflict physical damage to other grown men. In another thread, someone said there's no relationship with "crazy and violent". ALL of these guys are some level of "crazy and violent". Owners pay extra for "crazy and violent". Ultimately, I just don't think we can judge this subculture on the same measure as the rest of us in the standard corporate atmosphere. As I said earlier, it's vile and disgusting to us. But to them, this is just SOP. Without malice or harmful intent. But for whatever reason, Martin (who appears to be a participant in this activity) couldn't handle it.

    I just think there's been a rush to judgement on this.
    I agree that the NFL locker room is not the typical workplace.

    My question is whether the Dolphins have a typical NFL locker room.

    If you look at the Dolphins' roster, there are few veteran players who might be viewed as "leaders." Jake Long is gone. Jason Taylor is no longer there.

    Its a team of a lot of young players - much like our Rams. However, unlike our Rams, they don't have veterans like Chris Long, James Laurinaitis, Cortland Finnegan and (until this year) Steven Jackson to set the tone. They also don't have the kind of veteran HC that we have in Jeff Fisher.

    This makes me wonder if the Dolphins are an extreme, over-the-line, example of issues that occur in all NFL locker rooms.

    I don't know the answer.

    While there is no question in my mind that Incognito is an immature jerk, perhaps there are others like him everywhere. Maybe Martin is the anomaly.

    The bottom line is that the Dolphins' coaching staff and front office didn't rein this in and, as a result, they have abdicated the role of determining the outcome to the NFL, which has a decidedly different agenda than the team does (just ask the Saints).
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -11-12-2013 at 03:03 PM.

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by AV
    My question is whether the Dolphins have a typical NFL locker room.
    Valid question. I would think it is typical, but that's based purely on anecdotal items that have come out during this ordeal.
    If you look at the Dolphins' roster, there are few veteran players who might be viewed as "leaders." Jake Long is gone. Jason Taylor is no longer there.

    Its a team of a lot of young players - much like our Rams. However, unlike our Rams, they don't have veterans like Chris Long, James Laurinaitis, Cortland Finnegan and (until this year) Steven Jackson to set the tone. They also don't have the kind of veteran HC that we have in Jeff Fisher.

    This makes me wonder if the Dolphins are an extreme, over-the-line, example of issues that occur in all NFL locker rooms.
    Very true. And that sentiment is bolstered by the idea that Incognito was voted on to the team's 6-man player leadership council. How void of leadership must they be if "Cogs" is deemed a leader?
    The bottom line is that the Dolphins' coaching staff and front office didn't reign this in and, as a result, they have abdicated the role of determining the outcome to the NFL, which has a decidedly different agenda than the team does (just ask the Saints).
    When the world is looking for models of effective front office leadership, I too doubt the Dolphins will ever be mentioned......except as a "what not to do".
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Dolphins players defend Incognito, question Martin in bullying case

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    AV, we agree on dang near everything. Except this.

    It's a "workplace" in so much as these guys get paid. But that's where the comparison stops. It is neat and tidy to view the playing field, practice field, and locker room as some sort of standard office setting, but I just don't think that's how any NFL team does or even can operate. Their job is to go out and inflict physical damage to other grown men. In another thread, someone said there's no relationship with "crazy and violent". ALL of these guys are some level of "crazy and violent". Owners pay extra for "crazy and violent". Ultimately, I just don't think we can judge this subculture on the same measure as the rest of us in the standard corporate atmosphere. As I said earlier, it's vile and disgusting to us. But to them, this is just SOP. Without malice or harmful intent. But for whatever reason, Martin (who appears to be a participant in this activity) couldn't handle it.

    I just think there's been a rush to judgement on this.
    The Dolphins players apparently decided Richie Incognito was leadership material. Even if the Martin stuff hadn't happened, I would still say that represents extremely poor judgment on the part of the players.

    Ultimately Incognito is crazy and violent by the standards of the NFL. It's an easy mistake to make, but he has no ability to self-regulate at all. That's what makes him a danger. Rodney Harrison was an arsehat and a toolbox on the field, but he was not a psychopath and limited himself off the field.

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