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Thread: Double Standards

  1. #16
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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    Listen I'm not trying to change any of your minds, but if you don't see a problem with what's going on, I feel sorry for you. Which is why I brought up the Sterling situation as an example. I'm black and I don't agree he should be losing his franchise for a private convo brought to light. I believe he should be losing the franchise for the actual racist deeds he's done, some of which were settled out of court. Just as I don't believe Jones should be fined or suspended for "OMG horrible" Now if he said "WTF why is this f***ot getting drafted" then by all means yes. But "OMG horrible let's get real people.
    Okay...

    So let's say you start a company. You invest all your financial resources and time to build it up and to make it a success. Then, one of your employees does something that is not illegal and, perhaps, is not that big a deal. You, however, find the employee's action to be offensive. Or maybe you just feel that it brings bad publicity to your company.

    Should you not have the right to take action? Should the law step in and say "you can't punish him in the way you wish to, because that would be unfair"?

    Wouldn't that interfere with your freedom?

    I have to believe that, after the Incognito incident, the Dolphins warned their players to avoid making inappropriate comments on Twitter. Jones apparently ignored that warning, so he is facing the consequences.


  2. #17
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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I don't think anyone is denying that the comment was made in reference to the selection of Michael Sam, and I don't think that the comment was motivated by the Rams' depth at DE.

    As for it being a "free country," people just don't seem to understand the term.
    As Janis said, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose,
    Nothing don't mean nothing honey if it ain't free"

    And freedom isn't free. It cost a lot of lives and a lot of compromise.

    I agree with what Jigga is trying to say. People get all bent outta shape for simple words (even if in poor taste) but let others get away with actual actions that are a lot worse. Recently Tebow was frequently told to keep his personal life personal, and just play the game. When a certain great QB was told to quit spending so much time in the Bible and more time in the playbook, there were more that agreed than were offended. In the last two examples, no one (other than the victims) lost any pay or had to 'have training'. I think Sam should keep his personal life personal and just play the game, and I expect the media to give him the same cold shoulder they give to Christians that want to speak their personal lives.


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  3. #18
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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by gap View Post
    I think Sam should keep his personal life personal and just play the game, and I expect the media to give him the same cold shoulder they give to Christians that want to speak their personal lives.
    So, you think that Tim Tebow was given the "cold shoulder" by the media?

    Seriously?

    That guy's publicity to talent ratio was higher than anyone East of the Kardashians.

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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    My post does not infer that at all, but tell me this where was Michael Sams name or anything other entity mentioned? In a court of law this wouldn't stand up had not he apologized to Sam.
    I think it's pretty clear what Jones was referring to. If he wasn't referring to Sam, he would have explained that to Miami when he met with them prior to them handing out their punishment.

    Let me know when this gets to a court of law, and then we can talk about whether it meets those standards.


    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    So you're saying "OMG horrible" is a punishable statement?
    I'm saying that, as Jones' employer, the Dolphins organization can react to actions they think are inappropriate or don't reflect their values or standards with punishments such as the ones they've given Jones.
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  5. #20
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    Re: Double Standards

    Most of you here are too young to remember the 1960's and the bigotry that went on during that time.

    I grew up in the Ozarks, and even though the Civil Rights Act of 1964 banned practices such as separate facilities for non-whites, it took a while longer to eradicate the practice of blatant discrimination around here. Let me tell you, witnessing some old man telling a black family they weren't welcome in his restaurant does leave an impression on a four year old. Thankfully, my father spoke up and told the owner that he would not only let the family eat there, but let them sit where they wanted. Of course, flashing his badge probably persuaded the owner more than anything.

    Making businesses comply with the law was the easy part; changing the attitudes of the people took much longer. I don't think laws against "hate speech" are needed. What IS needed is people on BOTH sides of any subject to understand that not everyone is going to be like you want them to be.

    Let me put it in football related terms: We have a couple of members who dislike the Oakland Raiders. That's their right. Does this mean they have the right to cuss out the fans of the Raiders? Yes, they do have that right. Should they cuss out Raiders fans? If they have a valid reason, they could - but just because someone is wearing a Raiders jersey is not a valid reason. The person wearing that jersey might be the nicest person you might ever meet.


    "Discretion of speech is more than eloquence, and to speak agreeably to him with whom we deal is more than to speak in good words, or in good order." -Francis Bacon
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  6. #21
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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    Thank you. I don't understand why anyone else can't see the problem with this. And to your second statement I think he did learn his lesson.
    jjigga,

    1.) I thought your OP clearly stated the issue in a most precise and cogent manner. I, too, am puzzled by the responses posted by some in your thread. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised given the prevalence of PC (political correctness) which is only rivaled by the tumor-like rise of statist power. Neither of these diseases bodes well for freedom. A dying concept if ever there was one......

    2.) TBH with regards to my second statement I was being snarky and sarcastic. I don't think Mr. Jones needed to be taught a "lesson" or anything else for that matter. What he has learned, however, is that if he for some unknown reason thought he lived in a free country, or, heaven forbid, could actually render a two word sentence on something without being crucified, he has learned that that is certainly not the case, is it?

    It bothers me that he was forced to issue an "apology" for something he genuinely believes. It bothers me he is NOT being treated like a free man. Not at all in my opinion.... As Don Jones found out ya'll can be free to say what you want as long as it pre-approved and meets with the nebulous and murky PC standards of your employer and every other special interest group out there and what not.

    Oh well at least they can't accuse him of being a racist!!


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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    So, you think that Tim Tebow was given the "cold shoulder" by the media?

    Seriously?

    That guy's publicity to talent ratio was higher than anyone East of the Kardashians.
    By some of the media yes. He was vilified by some of the media and a lot of the general public because of his beliefs. Just as Michael Sam is having done to him.

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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    You walk a thin line, by trying to infer that his comment was directed at Sam. He could have meant horrible pick for Rams. We do know that his tweet was directed at Sam because he apologized, but let's get real "OMG...horrible" is far from bullying. Poor judgement, but bullying?????????? GET REAL.
    I think we need the NFLdotcom report to get at why Jones' remarks were considered a breach of workplace discrimination law. According to the report, "OMG" came after the pick, "horrible" came when someone asked him if his reaction was about Sam's friend hugging him. So there's little chance that he was expressing a football opinion about the pick.

    "Shortly after Sam was drafted with the 249th overall pick in the seventh round and became the first openly gay player in the NFL, Jones tweeted "omg" after television cameras showed Sam kissing his boyfriend.
    According to The Miami Herald, when Jones was asked on his social media channel if he was referring to the embrace, he responded: "Horrible." The tweets have since been deleted"

    Anti-gay remarks are considered discriminatory in the workplace, simple as that. Jones and Sam both work for the NFL. If jones wants to exercise his right to free speech, he can quit and join the followers of that thankfully now deceased vile excuse for a human being "pastor' who used to organize anti-gay protests at the funerals of fallen servicemen, protests that included carrying signs that read "God hates f@&s".

    Change the nature of the discrimination or derogatory remark & see if it sits well with you. Make Sam straight & have him hugging a white woman or vice versa, for example. Still plenty of places in this country where you'd get negative reactions from that as well, I am sorry to say.

    I am 50 years old, straight, and if I got any whiter I'd be translucent, & yet the negative reactions on this board, albeit a small minority, and in the wider NFL media conversation to the Michael Sam story disgust and sadden me.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post

    I think we need the NFLdotcom report to get at why Jones' remarks were considered a breach of workplace discrimination law. According to the report, "OMG" came after the pick, "horrible" came when someone asked him if his reaction was about Sam's friend hugging him. So there's little chance that he was expressing a football opinion about the pick.

    "Shortly after Sam was drafted with the 249th overall pick in the seventh round and became the first openly gay player in the NFL, Jones tweeted "omg" after television cameras showed Sam kissing his boyfriend.
    According to The Miami Herald, when Jones was asked on his social media channel if he was referring to the embrace, he responded: "Horrible." The tweets have since been deleted"

    Anti-gay remarks are considered discriminatory in the workplace, simple as that. Jones and Sam both work for the NFL. If jones wants to exercise his right to free speech, he can quit and join the followers of that thankfully now deceased vile excuse for a human being "pastor' who used to organize anti-gay protests at the funerals of fallen servicemen, protests that included carrying signs that read "God hates f@&s".

    Change the nature of the discrimination or derogatory remark & see if it sits well with you. Make Sam straight & have him hugging a white woman or vice versa, for example. Still plenty of places in this country where you'd get negative reactions from that as well, I am sorry to say.

    I am 50 years old, straight, and if I got any whiter I'd be translucent, & yet the negative reactions on this board, albeit a small minority, and in the wider NFL media conversation to the Michael Sam story disgust and sadden me.
    Nobody said that Jones violated any law with his comments. In fact, sexual orientation discrimination is, unfortunately, not prohibited under federal law, or the laws of most states.

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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Nobody said that Jones violated any law with his comments. In fact, sexual orientation discrimination is, unfortunately, not prohibited under federal law, or the laws of most states.
    I defer to your legal expertise,of course, but every employee handbook, the equivalent of a basic contract,no ?) I can recall has had anti-discriminatory rules in it & EOE posters all over the walls,etc. Would the NFL, the most corporate of enterprises & notoriously touchy about its image, be any different ?

    Aren't hate crime laws federal ? Not sayin' Jones' comments constituted a hate crime, of course, but it certainly doesn't make them less hateful in my view & it seems unlikely to me that there aren't private policies in place that render legislation, state or Federal, moot ? I believe passionately in freedom of speech; there are many things reasonable people can disagree on, but is there really anything to debate here ? Bigotry is wrong & I support the NFL's response & respect Fisher's move.

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    Re: Double Standards

    Should Jones be reprimanded? Yes but only from the standpoint that his words and action affect the brand of the NFL. His punishment was over the top. Avenger to answer your question is a little bit open ended because you did not give specifics. If it was an employee doing the same as Jones I would make him publicly apologize and let him know it can't happen again.

  12. #27
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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    I defer to your legal expertise,of course, but every employee handbook, the equivalent of a basic contract,no ?) I can recall has had anti-discriminatory rules in it & EOE posters all over the walls,etc. Would the NFL, the most corporate of enterprises & notoriously touchy about its image, be any different ?
    Some companies voluntarily include sexual orientation as a protected category. Some don't. I would hope (and expect) that the NFL would be among those who that go beyond the requirements of the law and prohibit this type of discrimination.

    Aren't hate crime laws federal ? Not sayin' Jones' comments constituted a hate crime, of course, but it certainly doesn't make them less hateful in my view & it seems unlikely to me that there aren't private policies in place that render legislation, state or Federal, moot ? I believe passionately in freedom of speech; there are many things reasonable people can disagree on, but is there really anything to debate here ? Bigotry is wrong & I support the NFL's response & respect Fisher's move.
    There are "hate crime" statutes in many jurisdictions. What Jones did does not reach the level of a crime.

    I agree completely with you that the NFL, and other private companies, should combat bigotry, regardless of whether the law has fully evolved.

  13. #28
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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    Should Jones be reprimanded? Yes but only from the standpoint that his words and action affect the brand of the NFL. His punishment was over the top. Avenger to answer your question is a little bit open ended because you did not give specifics. If it was an employee doing the same as Jones I would make him publicly apologize and let him know it can't happen again.
    That's the point, though. If you owned the Dolphins, you would be free to decide what the appropriate level of punishment should be. The actual owners of the Dolphins thought that a severe punishment was in order (again, obviously this was dictated, to a large degree, by the recent Richie Incognito matter). While you may disagree with their decision, you should respect their right to make that judgment.
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    Re: Double Standards

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    Should Jones be reprimanded? Yes but only from the standpoint that his words and action affect the brand of the NFL. His punishment was over the top.
    As an isolated incident, perhaps. That's certainly debatable. But I think Av made a good point early in this thread that this is an organization that, given recent news about the behavior of some players on their team, needed to come down swift and hard in how they handled this issue.
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    Re: Double Standards

    I'm pretty sure Donald Sterling knew he was being recorded and admitted he knew about it. He didn't approve the release and use of the recording.

    In the 40's having black athletes in the pros was a big deal. (Jones needs to think about that.)
    In the 50's a lot of people were upset by photos of a black man and woman kissing being shown. Eating in the same restaurant was forbidden.
    In the 60's and 70's, interracial marriage and dating was shocking. "Look Who's Coming to Dinner" was a big deal in 1967. The Star Trek first kiss was huge for some.
    Now it's gay marriage and showing of gay affection. Times evolve and so will this. The percentage of the population that approves of gay marriage is skyrocketing. It takes extra time for some people.

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