The Giants on Kurt Warner

[Nick]

I'm not so sure about the worst tools argument. Toomer/Hilliard are 2 very good WR's and Barber just needed a foot somewhere that the sun dosen't shine to bring out his talent. Plus, who on the Rams roster at TE can compare with Shockey?

Indeed, Tex. I think the Giants are very underrated offensively. Tiki Barber ranks first in the NFC in rushing yards, and third in the league in yards per game. He's been able to break some big runs thus far this season. And he's yet to fumble this season, which was his biggest cut. Toomer and Hillard aren't Holt/Bruce, but they're not exactly the KC receivers either. And Shockey is leagues above any tight end we have.

[thoey]

I'm not so sure about the worst tools argument. Toomer/Hilliard are 2 very good WR's and Barber just needed a foot somewhere that the sun dosen't shine to bring out his talent. Plus, who on the Rams roster at TE can compare with Shockey?

Tx, I love ya bud, but you are not seriously saying that Toomer and Hilliard are on par with Bruce and Holt. Barbar lacks consistency when compared to Faulk. I will give you that Shockey is better than any TE we have, but he is still an injury prone prima donna to me.

[Nick]

Barbar lacks consistency when compared to Faulk.

Has Faulk really been consistent over the last few seasons? I'm not so sure. Tiki and the NY Giants ground game, IMO, has looked much better than what we've been able to get on the ground.

[thoey]

And I'm sure none of that has to do with a stronger running game, more experience and arguably talent at the receiver position, or a better tight end? You seem pretty quick to claim Bulger can't run the offense, but let's be honest - this isn't a team that has GSOT potential right now. Maybe once Curtis and McDonald get some more experience, and maybe if Manu develops, and maybe if the line improves. But it's not there yet.

I am not really sure what you mean by the first sentence, but I will reply to the second. I agree that this team isn't capable of running the GSOT. Is that all MB's fault? Probably not. But I don't know if he could if those items were upgraded. Even you say "maybe". Hard to say about what if's...

Nothing, because the Rams aren't going to be running that offense. Are you suggesting the team should have changed their offensive philosophy because of Warner rather than just switching personnel and keeping with what they've been doing? That sounds like a huge mistake in management to me.

But the Rams DID change their offense philosphy. I know you have the tape. Watch the Giants game from last year. Make notes of all the plays and their formations. Now, watch every other game from last year with MB at the helm. Less five receiver sets and more people staying in and blocking. As MB has matured, and he has, the protection has started to lessen.

Why? The big difference is when we were losing with Warner, Warner wasn't playing that well. He was throwing very costly interceptions despite the defense keeping us in some of those games. When we've lost this season, Bulger has been playing very well. He's put up QB ratings over 100 in both the Rams losses. And to simplify Warner's release in that he lost the team and wasn't winning is not a great argument. Those are only parts of multiple reasons. Again, had Warner been willing to give back some bonus money to decrease his cap number, he might still be a Ram.

Okay, so it is only okay to throw interceptions if we win the game? While I agree it is easier to accept, but having moments of playing bad is still just bad, no matter whether you win or lose. And as we were told, Winning is the only thing that really matters.

No. No matter what anyone says, you think the Rams made a mistake. Your opinion isn't exactly an indisputable fact, thoey.

I agree. But then again, neither is yours. I meant to add "in my opinion" when I was rereading it, but got busy at work and forgot.

I think I will have to add this to the agree to disagree bin. All of your facts still haven't changed my mind that I feel Warner was done wrong. And this is just one of many that are leadings us down. Plus, not to mention that I have spent way too much time today paying attention to this and getting stats to back up my opinion. I hate looking up stats.

But, Nick, it's is still good to discuss something with someone who knows that the better the discussion, the better chance of somone else seeing your side. You are not one of those that just trivialize those that have a different opinion than you.

[adarian_too]

Are you trying to tell me the Giants offense and Rams offense is comparable?

If he was he was missing the point. One just has to love numbers at this moment. Numbers are, next to the dog, maybe, man's best friend, maybe. The teams' offenses are not comparable because in fact the numbers prove that the NY's offense is better. First of all, The Rams' offense has committed 34 penalities (tied for 3rd most in the NFL) while NY has committed only 29 (tied for 14th). The Rams' offensive penalities have cost the Rams 258 yards (9th in the NFL) while NY's have cost them only 215 (18th in the NFL). And apparently, most importantly, as thoey has already pointed out:

Biggest stat not shown above:

Rams 2 wins 2 losses
Giants 3 wins 1 loss

With one more win and one less loss than the Rams, the NY Giants are a sizable 50% better than them. The NY Giants would have to experience a whopping 33% reduction in winning efficiency to match the Rams clummsy .500 winning percentage level. The numbers don't lie. Therefore, clearly, the teams are comparable. It's just in some cases one team is more moronic than the other one.

This conclusion has been brought to you by your favorite sponsor. (c) All Rights Reserved Too.

[Nick]

Is that all MB's fault? Probably not. But I don't know if he could if those items were upgraded.

You sounded pretty sure when you said earlier that "MB can't run it" as part of the reason the Rams aren't running the offense.

Anyways, my first sentence was meant to point out that there are other factors besides the line and QB as to why we can't run the old GSOT offense.

But the Rams DID change their offense philosphy. I know you have the tape. Watch the Giants game from last year. Make notes of all the plays and their formations. Now, watch every other game from last year with MB at the helm. Less five receiver sets and more people staying in and blocking. As MB has matured, and he has, the protection has started to lessen.

And as I've shown you with statistics over the first four games, the Rams and Giants offensive scheme is very different. The Rams aren't going to make a change to the Giants scheme when they've got Bulger on the bench running the current offense well. Just because they made slight adjustments to the offense doesn't mean they're capable or even willing to make the kind of adjustments you're referring to.

Okay, so it is only okay to throw interceptions if we win the game? While I agree it is easier to accept, but having moments of playing bad is still just bad, no matter whether you win or lose. And as we were told, Winning is the only thing that really matters.

Who told you that? Probably no one from the organization. I can't defend the position of others, but my position has always been that there were multiple reasons for Warner's release, and the team's slump with him behind center was just one of them.


Good debate, thoey. I agree that this will probably just be something we'll have to disagree about and leave it at that. At least we can both be happy for Kurt and his success in a new environment, though!

[talkstoangels61]

I get it. I just wish some people would let it go.

Av your the one that always brings up the so called Warnerites in just about every thread you start about a qb!

[AvengerRam]

While I disagree with that statement, I'll make you a deal. I won't mention Warner or Warnerites again in any post that is not specifically about Warner. Let's see if his name pops up anyway in Bulger threads...

[talkstoangels61]

Okay thats fair enough for me! I am a KW fan as well as MB fan so i can't speak for all of us so called Warnerites but, i can speak for myself! In which you will not see a thread or reply on anything to do with the debate. fair enough?

[talkstoangels61]

Nope, never played organized football. How does this relate to the topic?

Playing the game of football really does have an impact about having a little more knowledge of the game Nic! Not meaning this in a derogatory way by no means,in matter of fact i'm truly glad your on board with us RAMS FANS, it's just that you are quite young to sit and keep argueing the fact or other people's opinions that have followed this team through hell and high water over the years! One's such as myself who have not only played the game but, was around through the Eric Dickerson trade,the 80's in which the 49er's beat us on a regular basis,the move to St.Louis in which at the time i hated but, truly am greatful for now!....not to mention that i only live 100 miles from ST.Louis (love it)! It's like being in a presidential debate sometimes when other fans voice their sentiments on various subjects! and i i truly do not mean this in a cruel way!.............Just wish you'd respect some of the others opinions instead of always trying to throw up stats and basically deciding in your on way that no matter what our feelings and beliefs are,they have to be wrong because of stats,etc...............stats are very misleading at times! and playing the game of football really does have meaning! .........example: could you say that you could understand the nature of say,driving a car ! Do you think that you would be good at it without ever being behind a wheel?.............This was my point is all!.......Glad you are here with us though!

[AvengerRam]

The truth is, Nick was just being modest. In reality, he is former Baltimore Colt great (and one-time Ram) Bert Jones.


Sorry to blow your cover Bert... er... Nick... er.... whatever.

[Nick]

Just wish you'd respect some of the others opinions instead of always trying to throw up stats and basically deciding in your on way that no matter what our feelings and beliefs are,they have to be wrong because of stats,etc

So what you're saying is that in order to respect the opinions of others, I have to agree with it? I have to silence any disagreement I have? That's not fair at all, but it sounds like that's exactly what you're saying. If I disagree with something, and I can pull on evidence like statistics to support my argument, I'm going to do it. I would suggest anyone who disagrees with something I say do the same thing.

For instance, I'm trying to make the argument that the scheme being run in NY is different from what the Rams are running. Since I don't have tape of every game to examine and post to illustrate my examples, statistics are the best I can use. I cited a couple of stats, such as the percentage of pass attempts thrown in formations of four or more wide receivers as well as the percentage of pass attempts thrown in formations with one or more tight ends. You're right in that stats can be misleading, but they're also very telling, like I think these are.

But someone's opinion isn't more worthy because he/she's either (1) been a fan longer or (2) actually played the game. While I value the knowledge that someone might bring to the table as an experienced player and also value the devotion someone shows as a fan to the team, I don't think that necessarily makes their opinion more valuable than another's.

All I can present are my opinions and facts to support them. If someone says the two offenses are comparible and I believe that to be incorrect and have stats that show some pretty telling differences between them, then I'm going to challenge what's been said. If you feel I've been disrespectful because I've disagreed with someone, then I would suggest reevaluating what you find respectful and disrespectful. Because merely disagreeing with someone isn't disrespectful, and I believe that's really all I've done.

[thoey]

Busy day today Nick, so I'll just make one comment.

But the Rams DID change their offense philosphy. I know you have the tape. Watch the Giants game from last year. Make notes of all the plays and their formations. Now, watch every other game from last year with MB at the helm. Less five receiver sets and more people staying in and blocking. As MB has matured, and he has, the protection has started to lessen.

And as I've shown you with statistics over the first four games, the Rams and Giants offensive scheme is very different. The Rams aren't going to make a change to the Giants scheme when they've got Bulger on the bench running the current offense well. Just because they made slight adjustments to the offense doesn't mean they're capable or even willing to make the kind of adjustments you're referring to.

I think you misunderstood me here. I was talking about at the beginning of last year, when KW was the starter. The scheme was pass first, block and run last. Fullback? What's that? Multi TE sets? Don't need them. We can fix that. Warner was getting shelled. And Martz didn't care.

Now skip forward to the point MB took over. More tight end sets. More Marshall. The never ending hunt for a FB. Protection was the name of the game. Cut the play book down drastically. And MB was able to play good using this scheme of offense. Obviously good enough to win our division.

Why couldn't Martz do that for KW? Did he suddenly get a conscious when KW was *done*? Now we are seeing KW in that sort of protect scheme in NY. And he is doing well. Proving that he is not done yet.

My point is this. If the Rams and Martz were willing to change the offense from the "full throttle, scrape Warner up, he'll be okay" version that they were running to the "Don't let them touch him" version they ran with Marc, why weren't they willing to do it for KW?

This isn't about Marc Bulgar. I am a Warner fan. Cinderella story that came out of no where and took us to the promise land. But more importantly, I am a Rams fan, which automatically makes me a Bulgar fan. He is the current leader of my team.

If KW had decided that he had enough and called it quits, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The way this happened, the KW is done, broken, can't play in the Not For Long league any more. And the way that he has shown those people that they were wrong. That he still can play. The better he does in NY, the more the stink wafts out of the offices at 1 Rams Parkway or what ever the hell the address of the Rams office is.

That's what this is about. :disappoin

[txramsfan]

Hook Em..........................

[thoey]

Saw'em off...