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  1. #16
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Faulk is 14th all-time on the list of carries and 6th for touches. I'd say he got his share.

    But who am I to interrupt the slightly veiled lobs at the evil Martz. Continue.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Faulk is 14th all-time on the list of carries and 6th for touches. I'd say he got his share.

    But who am I to interrupt the slightly veiled lobs at the evil Martz. Continue.
    I don't have any animosity at all toward Mike. In fact I have nothing but respect and gratitude for him since he was the prime architect for the GSOT and a number of successful Rams seasons in the recent past.

    I think this thread has some legitimacy. 1. Martz was our leader and offensive innovator. 2. He now coaches for our hated rival. 3. We don't know what that effect will have on the ****'s.

    Given the question, it is fair to offer our thoughts. Looking back at 1999, how many Rams fans were anticipating a run to the Superbowl? Of those who answer yes to that question here's another: How many of you felt the same way after Trent went down? The ****'s have lots of question marks, not the least of which is their receiving corp. But did any of us Rams fans know what Holt, Ahkim, and Horn would bring to the offense prior to the start of the 1999 season?

    So let's keep up the speculating...., at least until some better subjects come along.

  3. #18
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    Given the question, it is fair to offer our thoughts.
    Oh absolutely, Chris. My post was not an indictment of the whole thread. You're right, there are plenty of debatable points to the question of what the whiners could expect with Martz.

    Instead, my post was to set the record straight on Martz and the urban myth that he didn't run Faulk, or give him enough touches.

    As to his role with the whiners........oh yea, there are tons of questions.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #19
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    My point was also like HUb's. It's been widely speculated that Martz ignores the run...but that is one of those Urban legend rumors that just simply isn't true.

  5. #20
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    My point was also like HUb's. It's been widely speculated that Martz ignores the run...but that is one of those Urban legend rumors that just simply isn't true.
    I think alot of confusion or lack of memory is expected when it comes to Mike Martz and the GSOT. The GSOT offense had the ability to pass to open up the run. We are so used to the opposite (run to open up the pass) strategy that it's hard to believe the GSOT was so effective going against the grain or the rest of the NFL's game plans.

    The poor use of timeouts is what used to drive me nuts. Now the WHINERS get to deal with that.

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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by laram0 View Post
    The GSOT offense had the ability to pass to open up the run. We are so used to the opposite (run to open up the pass) strategy that it's hard to believe the GSOT was so effective going against the grain or the rest of the NFL's game plans.
    Great point. With the Rams, Martz passed 60% of the time and that was with a HOF running back. With Detroit, Martz called pass plays over 63% of the time with no running backs. So with Gore as his runner and little proven depth at WR, will Martz adapt his gameplans?

    Incidentally, the NFL run/pass ratio from 1999 to 2007 was 45/55.

  7. #22
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    My point was also like HUb's. It's been widely speculated that Martz ignores the run...but that is one of those Urban legend rumors that just simply isn't true.
    I don't know Tx, Detroit didn't think it was an urban legend with their 31st ranked rushing attack and dead last attempts per game last year. In fact, they sent him packing because of his run management.

  8. #23
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    I have some slightly different takes on Martz as the Whiners oc. He does tend to ignore the run sometimes and why people say he didnt is beyond me. He was a great offensive co-ordinator with the Rams in 99. Even with Faulk I did question a lot why we didnt use him. Sometimes he would pass,pass and pass some more and seemed to forget Faulk was in the backfield. Screw the run pass ratio that could have been skewed in the many blowouts the Rams were involved in. This isnt a jab at Martz I watched every game since 99 and he did ignore the running game many of times. Ok enough of that.

    I dont necessarily think Martz is bad for the Whiners I think the Whiners talent is bad for Martz. I actually think Shaun Hill is better fit for Martz than Smith. I actually think Smith sucks. He has a good rb but not a superstar. He has zero wr other than the aging Ike. I want to do a player by player breakdown on the offense from what Martz was successful with and what the Whiners have.

    Rams-QB Warner/Bulger-Warner one of the greatest to ever play the game very accurate and poised. Bulger had a tendency to throw too many picks but was young and up and coming.

    Whiners QB-Smith/Hill-Smith's best year was 06 where he had a 58.1 completion percentage and threw 16 td's and 16 picks. In MArtz offense accuracy is very important. 58.1 wont cut it Bulgers worst percentage was last year and that was behind a dreaded o-line. Smith needs to be more accurate. Shaun Hill on the other hand in very short work completed 68 percent of his passes in only three games of course. If you dont think Martz noticed this already your crazy. I would NOT be surprised if Hill is the starter come the first game.

    Lions-qb's-Kitna-He did make Kitna a better player but the Lions had no running game to back him up.

    Adv of course Martz Rams qb's.

    Rams-RB-Faulk enough said the guy was amazing in every facet of the game even blitz pickup.

    Whiners-RB-Gore-He can catch and can run but he doesnt bring that intangable that Faulk brought to the table. Martz will use him the way he should be used and Gore will succeed.

    Lions-rb's-Not worth mentioning.

    Adv of course Martz Rams rb's.

    Rams Wr's-Holt/Bruce/Proehl/Hakim/Horne/Curtis/Mcdonald/Furrey (Unreal).
    What can I say, this is just and unbeleivable set of wr's.

    Lions-wr's-Mcdonald/Williams/Johnson/Furrey. Nice wr's and a heck of a lot better than Frisco's. The Lions didnt succeed because the most important ingrediant in this offense is a star running back and a accurate qb. Kitna was accurate at 63 percent but threw more int's than td's both seasons. No star running back is present in Detroit.

    Whiners-wr's-Bruce/Johnson/Lelie/Battle. Doesnt exactly tickle your fancy right.

    Adv of course Martz Rams

    Rams-te's-Manumaleuna/Williams/Conwell-Manu caught 66 total receptions in 5 years with the Rams. Williams caught 51 balls in 3 years. Conwell caught 78 balls in 4 years under Martz. Te's are blockers in this offense not recievers.

    Whiners-te's-Vernon Davis-The best young recieving threat the whiners have. Can Martz adapt to the talent and can Davis be a part of the offense. Sure Saunders uses tight ends to perfection Martz may have to take a page out of his book and get Davis involved because the recieving threats are not there.

    Advantage Whiners but is it an advantage to have a young but unproven tight end in Martz system, we'll have to wait and see.

    Martz may be fine for Frisco but I just dont see the offensive talent to make his offense successful. He will get the blame when the Whiners suck and probably will get ran out of town but it wont be his fault. It will be the Whiners front office who lets Martz down by not giving him the weapons to work with. Martz was successful in St. Louis because he had a star studded roster to work with. When I look at the Whiners roster I see a star dudded roster. I think the Rams now have far more star power coming up this year than the Whiniers do. I also think if we stay healthy we will be a far better team than the Whiners but that may not be saying much.
    Just Fix It

  9. #24
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    So now Martz "forgot" about or "ignored" Faulk in the offense? -sigh-

    The NFL's touch leaders from '99-'01....

    1. Curtis Martin, 1,184
    2. Eddie George, 1,172
    3. Edge James, 1,056
    4. Marshall Faulk, 1,017

    As I've said over and over (despite the cockroachesque survivability of the myth), Martz utilized Faulk.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #25
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    So now Martz "forgot" about or "ignored" Faulk in the offense? -sigh-

    The NFL's touch leaders from '99-'01....

    1. Curtis Martin, 1,184
    2. Eddie George, 1,172
    3. Edge James, 1,056
    4. Marshall Faulk, 1,017

    As I've said over and over (despite the cockroachesque survivability of the myth), Martz utilized Faulk.
    Hub, I love your posts and 99.9% you are right on but......, not here. You keep trying to turn this thread into a MF issue. I don't see posts here disputing MF didn't get his touches. Most have said that MM is pass happy, and I agree. Statistics (yes they can be manipulated) tend to bear that out.

    As far as Faulk is concerned, he is the best RB in recent times and though he touched the ball a lot in the three years you cite here, he only averaged 16 carries a game over that span. For a premier RB, that is not a high average. The rest of Faulk's touches are made up in the pass receiving mode.

    From what I've observed of MM during his 7 years with the Rams and his two years with Detroit, his history leads me to say that his presence in SF as OC should make for an interesting year.

  11. #26
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris58 View Post
    Hub, I love your posts and 99.9% you are right on but......, not here. You keep trying to turn this thread into a MF issue. I don't see posts here disputing MF didn't get his touches. Most have said that MM is pass happy, and I agree. Statistics (yes they can be manipulated) tend to bear that out.

    As far as Faulk is concerned, he is the best RB in recent times and though he touched the ball a lot in the three years you cite here, he only averaged 16 carries a game over that span. For a premier RB, that is not a high average. The rest of Faulk's touches are made up in the pass receiving mode.

    From what I've observed of MM during his 7 years with the Rams and his two years with Detroit, his history leads me to say that his presence in SF as OC should make for an interesting year.
    Thank you very much. While I also respect Hub's opinion I also think he is wrong. Maybe we should clarify touches into recieving touches which isnt running the ball and handoff touches. When I say Faulk was ignored it was in the running game at times. I dont deny Marshall was very effective but under the Martz regime while watching the games I found myself hoping he would run the ball. So maybe Marshall got plenty of touches but they were not all running the ball.

    Eddie George rushed the ball 1038 times in that 3 year span.
    Curtis Martin rushed the ball 1016 times in that 3 year span.
    Edgerrin James rushed the ball 907 times in that 3 year span and only played in 6 games in 01'.
    Faulk rushed the ball 766 times in that 3 year span 141 attempts less than a guy who only played 6 games in 01' if thats not under utilizing a great running back then I dont know what is. Almost 300 attempts less than the other two.

    Faulk got plenty of "touches" Hub is right, but we are talking about Martz at times ignoring the running game.
    Just Fix It

  12. #27
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    Hub, I love your posts and 99.9% you are right on but......, not here.
    Quote Originally Posted by miser
    While I also respect Hub's opinion I also think he is wrong.
    And fellas, the respect is certainly mutual. However, I believe you're wrong about me being wrong; as well as you being right about me being wrong that I'm right. Or am I just right about me being right? Now, I'm confused.

    Okay, back to Martz and Faulk.
    So maybe Marshall got plenty of touches but they were not all running the ball.
    Faulk averaged 5.38 yards per rush; and 10.53 yards per reception. As well, Faulk ran the ball 20.7 carries for every TD, but caught 11.4 passes for every TD.

    Why would we want Faulk to catch less and run more?
    Eddie George rushed the ball 1038 times in that 3 year span.
    Curtis Martin rushed the ball 1016 times in that 3 year span.
    Edgerrin James rushed the ball 907 times in that 3 year span and only played in 6 games in 01'.
    Faulk rushed the ball 766 times in that 3 year span 141 attempts less than a guy who only played 6 games in 01' if thats not under utilizing a great running back then I dont know what is. Almost 300 attempts less than the other two.
    But when did "rushing attempts" become the success yardstick for a running back? Why not true production.....like yards and TDs?

    Edge James - 5297 yards, 38 TDs
    Curtis Martin - 5268 yards, 26 TDs
    Eddie George - 4942 yards, 34 TDs
    Marshall Faulk - 6765 yards, 59 TDs

    Maybe Martz didn't utilize Faulk the way you guys wanted to (run more), but it would appear he knew what he was doing with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    he only averaged 16 carries a game over that span. For a premier RB, that is not a high average.
    I think we have to tweak that statement a little. For a premier rusher, that may not be a lot, I agree. But Faulk was more than that, wasn't he? His receiving out of the backfield or in the slot were what made Faulk.....Faulk. Yes, he carries per game ranked him 19th in '99, but he led the league (by over 18 yards per game) in yards from scrimmage per game. In 2000, he was 15th in c/g, but again led the league (by over 13 y/g) in yfs/g. In 2001, he was 14th in c/g, but once again led the league (by over 18 y/g) in yfs/g.

    Fellas, like I said, I have to disagree that Martz somehow made some mistake in his utilization of Faulk. It may not have been in the traditional since, but Martz knew what he had in Faulk and used him as such.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  13. #28
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Let's see.....without the best defense in the world......Martz took his teams to the playoffs 4 out 0f 5 years he was the full time HC. Some of those teams you guys are mentioning did not have near the WR weapons at their disposal as the Rams. So, why inherently "run" the ball more just because that's conventional wisdom? I think Martz took what the Rams had and utilized it to it's greatest potential. His genius was a very integral part in the Super Bowl win. He brought the Rams back against the Patriots in the 4th quarter with an all out attack. Was it his fault Proehl fumbled at the 50 late in the first half? Was it his fault there was no hitting the head of Warner on that fatal interception? No.

    Martz in SF will be tested that's for sure. They do not have the weapons that the Rams had. However, don't say you won't be worried about Martz. There isn't a team on Earth he would rather crush than the Rams and the way he's been treated by the fans and the front office, I can't say I blame him one bit.

  14. #29
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    Faulk got plenty of "touches" Hub is right, but we are talking about Martz at times ignoring the running game.
    Okay, this is it. This puts it into a few words. I think Martz eshews the run. It will be interesting to see if he adapts to the talent in SF or pushes his pass first philosophy. Who knows what will happen, but as Tx says, MM does strike a bit of fear in all us Rams fans because we know what he can do.

    I now permanently sign off this thread.

  15. #30
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    Re: im not worried about martz and the whiners

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    Okay, this is it. This puts it into a few words. I think Martz eshews the run.
    Ah, now here is where me, you, and (I'd wager) miser all agree...........will Martz adapt his calling to the weapons provided in SF?

    I think another valid question is.....will Martz fight off the temptation to overuse Bruce, going with the comfort factor that's present?

    As well, Gore has shown he can catch the ball out of the backfield. He might explode under the Martz system. Certainly something to think about for all the fantasy owners out there.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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