Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 26 of 26
  1. #16
    Curly Horns's Avatar
    Curly Horns is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    1st & Goal
    Posts
    2,598
    Rep Power
    58

    Question Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    I'd see it more as a multi-millionaire vs some other multi-millionaires.
    Granted, however, it is still the working man vs. the company. McCardell is scheduled to make 2.5 million this season. The 2003 value of the bucs was 671 million, roughly 270 times that of McCardell's salary.



    Just like every law enforcement officer, firefighter, soldier, seaman, airman, marine, etc... none of which get paid multiple millions of dollars every year to do the job they said they would do. And yet they show up to work every day.
    Point noted. But since you mentioned it, why is there is such a large gap between the the salaries of these jobs compared to NFL players? Could it be the fans who support the game? If so, what right do they have to complain?

    The way I see it, a person is either:

    1. A fan who supports the NFL and becomes a hypocrite by complaining about the disparaging salaries between NFL players and the average working person.

    or

    2. A person who protests the NFL and has every right to complain about the disparaging salaries.


  2. #17
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,565
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    1. A fan who supports the NFL and becomes a hypocrite by complaining about the disparaging salaries between NFL players and the average working person.
    Don't get me wrong. I'm all for capitalism. Supply & demand, market value, all that stuff. The market is as the market is. And the market was a certain thing when he signed that contract. Now it is something different. That is not where I have a problem. I have a problem...
    1. The fact that he signed a contract and now refuses to live up to it.
    2. When athletes complain that they are not getting paid what they "deserve". Just because the market value's their ability at a certain amount, does not mean they deserve anything.

    I've seen too many people struggle just to make ends meet, to have to listen to some punk millionaire who doesn't know how good he's got it.

    Just one man's opinion.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  3. #18
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is online now Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,355
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    He signed a contract to play football for the Tampa Bay Bucaneers for a certain time period for a certain amount of money. That time period has not passed, yet Keenan is refusing to play football for the TB Bucs (ie. fulfilling his end of the transaction) without a change in that certain money amount agreed upon in the contract.
    Question. Keenan signed a contract for filling the role of the second receiver behind Keyshawn Johnson. That's no longer the case. Therefore, I think one can argue a perfectly legit point that the Tampa Bay Bucs are in a way not fulfilling their end because they're not using him in the role he signed the contract for. If Keenan was still Tampa's #2 receiver, I'd tell him to shut up. But what you keep glossing over is that his role has changed, and he wants a contract that reflects his role on the team. His current contract does not.


    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Just like every law enforcement officer, firefighter, soldier, seaman, airman, marine, etc... none of which get paid multiple millions of dollars every year to do the job they said they would do. And yet they show up to work every day. Honestly it is more dangerous to work a minimum-wage job at the local convenience store than it is to be an NFL player.
    You're missing the point. If every law enforcement officer, firefighter, soldier, seaman, airman, marine, etc. knew of another company paying their workers much much more for the same job, guess what? They'd be just as pissed about it.

    What we're talking about is Keenan wanting to be paid the typical price for the role he's in with this team. If a police officer making -- just a guess -- $30 an hour hears about another cop in another city making double that despite working the same hours, do you think the cop would just sit back and not be concerned about it? I don't. Not at all.

    This isn't just about money. It's about money per the market value.
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Two
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  4. #19
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is online now Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,355
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    I've seen too many people struggle just to make ends meet, to have to listen to some punk millionaire who doesn't know how good he's got it.
    Ignore for just a moment that he's making millions and think about it. Any employee who knows a number of other employees of different companies making nearly double what he/she is for the same job would not be satisfied with their current economic state. That's really all that's going on here.
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Two
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  5. #20
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,565
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Ignore for just a moment that he's making millions and think about it. Any employee who knows a number of other employees of different companies making nearly double what he/she is for the same job would not be satisfied with their current economic state. That's really all that's going on here.
    And they are free to go seek employment with that higher paying company. Why? Because they didn't sign a contract. That's the luxury that most of have. As I've stated earlier, I work for a federal agency. If I knew that another agency would pay me more for the job I'm currently doing, I would have no problem with at least looking into it. Why? Again, I didn't sign a contract. If I want to walk away, I give my two weeks notice (which is only a courtesy) and I walk. Keenan signed a contract. If you want to ignore the magnitude of money, fine. But you're still left with a signed contract that Keenan is not fulfilling. And while I have not seen his contract, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that it says nothing about being a contract to play as the 2nd wide receiver.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #21
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,565
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Question. Keenan signed a contract for filling the role of the second receiver behind Keyshawn Johnson. That's no longer the case. Therefore, I think one can argue a perfectly legit point that the Tampa Bay Bucs are in a way not fulfilling their end because they're not using him in the role he signed the contract for.
    Nick, as I stated earlier. I highly doubt that Keenan's contract says he signed to be the #2 receiver. I even doubt the contract states he is signing on to be a wide receiver. If I were to guess (and that's all it is), I'd say it just says he is signing to play football for the Bucs. If I'm wrong, and his contract actually says he contractually agrees to be the 2nd receiver, then I will most humbly admit that I have made a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    You're missing the point. If every law enforcement officer, firefighter, soldier, seaman, airman, marine, etc. knew of another company paying their workers much much more for the same job, guess what? They'd be just as pissed about it.
    Trust me, Nick. These men & women don't do what they do for money.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    What we're talking about is Keenan wanting to be paid the typical price for the role he's in with this team. If a police officer making -- just a guess -- $30 an hour hears about another cop in another city making double that despite working the same hours, do you think the cop would just sit back and not be concerned about it? I don't. Not at all.
    But Nick, as I stated earlier, these individuals are not under contract. Keenan is.

    Nick, I know you think I'm missing your point, but I really do see what you're saying. You're talking about market value and finding compensation that meets market value for a specific skill set whether it be teacher, preacher, cop or NFL wide receiver. I understand, but I think there are two points that make this case more than simply a case of demanding market value.
    1. Most important - he's under contract.
    2. The magnitude of money we're talking about. This isn't someone with a $30-per-hour job looking for a $33-per-hour job. This is someone with a (roughly) $2000-per-hour job wanting $4000-per-hour, and willing to break a contract to get it.

    Nick, I know we disagree on this point, but I do appreciate your thoughts. I respect your opinion on this...even if I do disagree.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  7. #22
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is online now Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,355
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    1. Most important - he's under contract.
    Which is why I've stated that I disagree with his choosing to hold out and not play under his contract. My point has been and remains to be that he has a point in asking for market value because he signed to play as a second receiver, and that's not what he's doing. He wants fair compensation for his role. Again, I don't think he should hold out, but I think his request is perfectly legit. Unfortunately with the cap, teams aren't always able to be fair.

    I respect your opinion as well, and I agree with you that he has to honor the contract he signed. But that doesn't mean he can't petition for money that matches what he's actually doing. At the time, the Bucs had their #1 receiver -- Keyshawn Johnson. Keenan signed to play the number two role. Whether it's in the contract or not is irrelevent because the contract was negotiated under those terms, to my knowledge. Who would have thought Keyshawn wouldn't have been with the Bucs for another 4-5 years prior to 2002?
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Two
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  8. #23
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is online now Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,355
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Trust me, Nick. These men & women don't do what they do for money.
    I disagree. Surely there are other factors that lead people to do this kind of work, but I would question the implication that if these people were aware of better paying jobs that required the exact same amount of work, they wouldn't investigate and/or talk to their employers about a change.
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Two
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  9. #24
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,565
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    I agree with you that he has to honor the contract he signed. But that doesn't mean he can't petition for money that matches what he's actually doing.
    Well, maybe we're closer to agreement than I thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    I disagree.
    Or I could be wrong. :confused:
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #25
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is online now Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,355
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Don't be discouraged. This is one of the more pleasant football debates I've had in a while.
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Two
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  11. #26
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,565
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Keenan does have a point, but he's wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Don't be discouraged. This is one of the more pleasant football debates I've had in a while.
    Agreed. Pretty civil for an off-season discussion. :redface:
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: -10-08-2006, 12:13 PM
  2. The wrong Army.
    By psycho9985 in forum LOUNGE
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: -01-11-2006, 02:58 AM
  3. What's wrong with the Seahawks?
    By Nick in forum NFL TALK
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: -11-16-2004, 11:37 AM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: -09-28-2004, 08:57 AM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: -09-19-2004, 06:43 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •