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Thread: Kurt warner
Re: Kurt warner
I'm happy for Kurt. He is off to a great start and will likely have a very good year.
But make no mistake... had Warner stayed with the Rams all these years and taken the hits that Marc Bulger has taken since he took over as the starter he'd probably be retired now due to concussions or other injuries. Instead, he had a few years to get healthy and now is playing behind a line that is giving him protection, allowing him to throw to two very good young WRs.
To compare Warner and Bulger is pointless. Both can be very effective with protection and good receivers. Neither can succeed without pass protection.
Welcome to the St. Louis Rams!
Re: Kurt warner
This reminds me of the story of two NASCAR drivers I know.....Billy Ray Boshanks & Jim Bob Johnson. Both raced for Team Dip-Spit Tobacco. Billy was Dip-Spit's premier racer. He made left turns like nobody has ever done in the history of left-turns. And the pit crew had Billy's car running like a cheetah. But eventually, Billy developed a bad case of advertoscaevus from all the left turns. That's when Jim jumped in and took off. He wasn't running the car quite like Billy did in the past, but he was moving it better than Billy was at the time.
Well, as tends to happen, Billy was sent off to race for another team, and feel into the shadows. Meanwhile, Jim was driving like a champ, but the car started having problems. The engine wasn't firing on all cylinders, the tires kept falling off, and the modifications the pit crew were making just weren't working. Jim got pretty frustrated, but what can he do other than race the car the crew gives him?
On the other hand, Billy signs on with a race team that has put together a great car that was being driven by a young kid who had a world of talent but just couldn't master the left turn. Enough time had gone by that Billy's advertoscaevus was healed, and he knew how to drive that car like a champ. So the kid was replaced by Billy, and once again, Billy was off to the races with his souped up machine.
So who is the better driver....Billy or Jim? Are will we ever know since all they can do is drive the car they're given?"Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod
Re: Kurt warner
It's tough to say what would have happened to Kurt if he had stayed here. When we parted ways, he wasn't healthy even when he was able to play. He was making bad decisions and turning over the ball. In his prime, Warner seemed fearless. When he was struggling, he seemed unable not to think about the coming pass rush. I don't know if he ever would have regained his confidence playing here.
Besides, in Arizona right now, he gets to work with two of the best receivers in the league, both of whom are in their prime. Here, he wouldn't have that luxury.
Re: Kurt warner
Re: Kurt warner
I think you guys are a little off-base on what was or has made the difference in Warner staying on the field. If he hadn't adopted the gloves, he would not be starting right now. As recently as 2006 when he wasn't wearing them he was a fumble waiting to happen. Whether it's due to the broken bones or if he was never really that good at protecting the ball, the gloves afford that little bit extra so he doesn't fumble it every time he gets sacked or hit.
Add to that, Whisenhunt/Haley's forcing him to focus on protecting the ball in the pocket and adjusting his approach to things in general.
P.S. Warner won his 7th player of the week this week(3rd with the Cardinals).
Re: Kurt warner
Kurt Warner = The only Quarterback to ever lead the Rams to a Super Bowl Championship. Bulger will never have that distinction. It's not his fault; he has talent, but any natural leadership he might have had was squashed by Martz's ego.
It's also a little misleading to say that Warner had a good O-line and Bulger didn't. Nobody remembers how Warner was always having to duck out of the way of the rush? Warner is far from mobile, but he could do the job under pressure. Bulger never had that as a plus.
Sure, Warner fumbled. His thumb was messed up. Instead of having patience with the guy who knows how to win, Martz went his own way, and the front office backed him, for whatever reason. Now Martz isn't here, Bulger still isn't the right answer and Warner is putting up perfect ratings for a division rival.
Can we truly say what "would have happened"? Warner had to deal with shoddy protection in New York; he did OK.. would he have led them to the Super Bowl if Manning had not come along? Who knows? Could he have salvaged our dynasty here? Not with Martz, that's for sure. With a different head coach.. one who wasn't threatened by Kurt's leadership or faith, who knows what kind of talent we could have attracted?
The NFL isn't set up to produce dynasties.. their schedule pits the top teams against the top teams.. the draft gives the first picks to the lesser teams... if you want to be a dynasty, it takes something special... a front office that can overcome that.. one that is patient and can deal with injuries and blend egos well.
We Rams have never had that, really... so it's no surprise we couldn't sustain our success. But are we also stupid.. so that we can't learn from our mistakes? The first thing we should learn is to get out of denial. To give credit where it's due, and blame where it's due. See the truth as it actually is, fix our underlying problems, then go forth.
The problem is: Our underlying problems are at the heart of the team: Ownership and Management, and always have been.
No doubt, it takes talent to win. It also takes chemistry and creativity. Every team can count on getting lucky enough to have the talent sooner or later, just by the odds and the way the NFL is set up. The trick is to have the organization to build long term.
Why did the team do consistently well in the 70s? It was old-school. Times changed, though, and Rams' management never did. We've never been very good at Free agency, really. We've gotten lucky with some moves, but we didn't learn how to play the various systems like the Whiners and Plowboys.
What'cha gonna do? Keep hoping for the lucky season to come around again, I reckon, Secretly keep hoping that these folks sell the team to someone who can build a dynasty. Yes.. it can be done. If others have done it, why not the Rams?
Re: Kurt warnerOriginally Posted by atchris"Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod
Re: Kurt warner
I assume he's referencing the allegation by Warner, back then, that coaches were telling him to "put his bible down" and focus on football more when he started to struggle.
It did seem, with Bulger's quick success in '02, Warner's support by the coaching staff went from "complete" to "we've got a young guy that we pay a lot less that will do whatever he's told and do it as good as you can". Of course, it's been 5+ years so maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Re: Kurt warner
Warner, I guarantee, has read the book, understands them and lives them.
As for faith, I believe Martz is like a lot of people, and don't mind someone's faith until it actually affects how they act.. so when Warner got hurt, Martz no longer had to put up with what he found to be a "distraction". I certainly believe it colored his actions towards Warner.
Re: Kurt warnerOriginally Posted by atcchris
Maybe John Maxwell should be the next head coach."Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod
Re: Kurt warner
I pretty much think that Martz, whether intentionally or subconsciously, set Warner up to fail. Warner's performance during those critical few games was not markedly worse than Bulgers, considering the level of competition.
Warner was 34/54 for 342 yards, with 1 TD and 1 INT in the opener against he Giants. He fumbled the ball away 5 times. Turns out his hand was injured.
Bulger replaced Warner for the next game vs a pretty hapless whiner team. Rams won in overtime, Bulger was 25/36 for 236 yards and 2 TD.
Rams go to Seattle.. are up 23-10 in the 4th, and 2 Bulger interceptions snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. 21/34 for 226 yards, 1 TD, 2 picks.
Warner was ready to go the next week vs a truly horrible Cardinals team. But Martz decides not to go with him, and lets Bulger play the Rams to a 37-13 win, in which Bulger's numbers were 28/42 272 yards, 2 TD and 1 INT.
Bye week, then the horrible Falcons are next. Martz won't play Warner, and the realization sets in that Martz has made his choice.. an injury.. one game where Warner fumbled 5 times, and then he's stuck on the shelf, nevermind that he led his team to 2 Super Bowls and won 1 of them.
Bulger puts up numbers (including Picks) vs Atlanta, a down Green Bay team and Pittsburgh with Tommy Maddox. (Well, no picks vs Pittsburgh, at least)
Then the debacle in San Fran.. still no Warner....
Vs Baltimore.. Bulger is 13/26 for 110 yards.. no TDs and 2 picks.. and somehow we win, 33-22. Still no Warner.
Next week.. pitiful bears team.. we squeak by.. 23-21 Bulger 29/46 240 yards 2 TD and 2 picks.
We keep winning! How can I change QBs? is Martz' logic.
Back to play another woeful team.. the Cardinals.. we win another close one in OT.. Bulger goes 28/44 with 1 TD and 4 picks. Still no Warner.
Here is a quote from an article written after the game:
Question on the Rams: Despite the wins, how long does Martz stay with a struggling Bulger?
Bulger is probably a couple of bad series away from being replaced by Kurt Warner. Against the Cardinals he was responsible for five turnovers and those mistakes kept this game tighter than it should've been. Coach Martz is probably going to handle this situation differently than he has in the past. Instead of replacing Bulger in the middle of the game and having him stew on a bad play, he'll probably keep him in and replace him the next game.
Bulger "stepped up" against the Vikings.. another mediocre team.. and we blew them out. Bulger's stats: 15/20 for 222 yards... 1 TD and 1 INT. Woo.. he really proved himself there! Isaac Bruce passed for nearly 1/5 of Bulger's total yards in that game!
We then take on a bad Browns team (notice a theme?) on Monday night and win, 26-20. Bulger goes 22/36 for 223 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT.
Next game we beat Seattle at home, 27-22.. Bulger 20/32 236 yards, 2 TD 1 INT. Rams are now an amazing 11-3. GSOT is going strong, right? Bulger's like a well-oiled machine! (not)
We take out the Bengals, 27-10 Bulger 24/38 229, 2 TD 1 pick, to go 12-3, and then lose to the 5-11 Lions, 30-20. Bulger 18/31 170, 1 TD 1 INT.. and a rusty Warner is called in from the bench to replace the ineffective and bruised Bulger... he has to dust the cobwebs out of his helmet... 4/11 for 23 yards in his token appearance. (I haven't even mentioned all the fumbles Bulger has lost during the season.. including 2 in this Detroit game...) The Rams were playing for home field throughout the playoffs... but couldn't get er done.
So... the playoffs loom..up comes Carolina, and Martz is still going with his boy Bulger.... and we get tossed out of the playoffs like the charade we were. Bulger 27/46.. 0 TD and 3 picks.
That was the end of an era.. the Rams limped into the playoffs at 8-8 the next year, led by Bulger and his interceptions.. beat the sea-chickens in the wild-card game, but laid a giant egg vs the Falcons the next week, and that was that.
6-10 in 2005.
8-8 in 2006.
8-8 in 2007. (Season ending loss to Warner and the Cards, 48-19)
Sad. So sad. What could our wiley Veteran leader, Warner have done in 2004? I think he could have led us back to the Super Bowl, and we could have won it. I think we would have made the playoffs in 2005, 2006 AND 2007. I think we would have made different decisions had Martz not poisoned the nest... and we would have kept and/or replaced talent.
No way to prove it. But I can prove that Bulger didn't deserve to start all those games in 2004. It wasn't his time or turn yet. But Martz made it happen, and I believe he did so because of his ego.
Re: Kurt warner
Others have said that talent sure can make any coach look like a genius.. I agree with that.. but you really get something special when you have a coach who knows his football business, and who is also the right kind of leader. Vermeil was that kind of coach... Dungy is that kind of coach... There have been quite a few of them. I don't think Linehan is one. Martz wasn't.
Who is? That's what we have to figure out.
Then comes the other side of the equation.. talent evaluation. I don't think the current administrative staff are very good at that.
It's going to take a total rebuild, I think... now that we've thrown away most of the greatest show on turf. Holt is still good, but he deserves better, and I don't think he's going to stand around waiting for something to happen for 2 or 3 more seasons. Jackson is the real deal.... we have a chance to build around him on Offense.. but it sure would be nice to also concentrate on defense for a change.
It's going to take money, patience and intelligence... I don't think this group has any of that, really.
So I'm rooting for new owners. Time for the Rosenbloom era to finally end. If that means moving back to LA... I personally don't mind that at all. I have nothing against St. Louis, but I became a fan when they were in LA, and I really think that's where they belong.
Put an exciting team on the field, and people will come. And the economic engine of southern california will give the new owners enough cash to make real deals. No pro football competition in that LA TV market? What an opportunity. And if the proper ownership team came along.. patient and intelligent.. THAT would be a big win for the Rams.
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