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Thread: Kurt warner

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Nice to see that your time away from the boards has allowed you to gain perspective and let things go, atcchris. Its a terrible thing when we hold grudges and are unable to move forward. You have truly evolved.


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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Nice to see that your time away from the boards has allowed you to gain perspective and let things go, atcchris. Its a terrible thing when we hold grudges and are unable to move forward. You have truly evolved.
    And nice to see you're still the same last-word-obsessed Warner-hater that you've always been.

    Face it. You were wrong back then, and you're wrong now. Just because you're one of the admins doesn't give you a right to come in here and bad-mouth me.

    I haven't said anything to you, and I won't, ever, so long as you leave me alone.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Ok fellas I'm going to put this one to rest so everyone will quit with the why did Kurt have to leave. I work with a guy who's brother is a chiropractor and knows the Rams medical staff very well and is friends with several of the players, he gets tickets from Holt on a regular basis. The reason Kurt was basically run out of town because of Brenda, she constantly spoke out against Martz and the FO in the media. Martz and his monster ego could'nt stand for anyone to question his ability so Kurt had to go baby. It had nothing to do with his faith, I went to the same church as Kurt and Brenda and always saw Ernie Conwell and Bruce there too so Ike just left and had Ernie not gotten hurt he may still be here. But I think it was AV that said it, if he had stayed here he would'nt be playing any more, he took some big hits when he was here and that takes it toll. If he had taken some of the hits Bulger has taken over the last few years he would be out of the game by now for sure.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by makersncoke View Post
    Ok fellas I'm going to put this one to rest so everyone will quit with the why did Kurt have to leave. I work with a guy who's brother is a chiropractor and knows the Rams medical staff very well and is friends with several of the players, he gets tickets from Holt on a regular basis. The reason Kurt was basically run out of town because of Brenda, she constantly spoke out against Martz and the FO in the media. Martz and his monster ego could'nt stand for anyone to question his ability so Kurt had to go baby. It had nothing to do with his faith, I went to the same church as Kurt and Brenda and always saw Ernie Conwell and Bruce there too so Ike just left and had Ernie not gotten hurt he may still be here. But I think it was AV that said it, if he had stayed here he would'nt be playing any more, he took some big hits when he was here and that takes it toll. If he had taken some of the hits Bulger has taken over the last few years he would be out of the game by now for sure.
    I think you're right regarding the reasons. I think Kurt's faith was a minor irritant to Martz, not THE reason. But Kurt's faith is what enabled the leader in him to be so effective. I believe, therefore, that it ALSO threatened Martz, and they booted him to the curb, to the delight of some of the fans.... after all.. we were still "winning" without him. What a HUGE, COLOSSAL mistake they made. And it was VERY ingratious to what Kurt had brought to OUR TEAM.

    I certainly don't feel like forgiving Martz for it, nor the Rams' front office. Leaders, Winners... they don't treat people like that. The Rams' brain trust is, therefore, incapable of leading and winning, consistently. We are in for more of the same over the years.

    As for whether or not Warner would have survived here... who is to say? The Giants didn't provide very good protection for him. The Cardinals haven't either. Again, who is to say what would have happened if Warner had been allowed to lead the team in 2004? I say he'd have taken us to the Super Bowl, and there's no reason to believe we would have lost it. We had the team intact that year.. we just didn't have a QB who could operate under pressure. And what would have happened in 2005? Totally different draft.. totally different actions taken by the front office. Would they have been able to shore up the O-line? Winning begets winning, all things being equal... but.. again.. they front office doesn't have the character it takes to consistently win, so... you might be right about that too.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by atcchris View Post
    I think you're right regarding the reasons. I think Kurt's faith was a minor irritant to Martz, not THE reason. But Kurt's faith is what enabled the leader in him to be so effective. I believe, therefore, that it ALSO threatened Martz, and they booted him to the curb, to the delight of some of the fans.... after all.. we were still "winning" without him. What a HUGE, COLOSSAL mistake they made. And it was VERY ingratious to what Kurt had brought to OUR TEAM.

    I certainly don't feel like forgiving Martz for it, nor the Rams' front office. Leaders, Winners... they don't treat people like that. The Rams' brain trust is, therefore, incapable of leading and winning, consistently. We are in for more of the same over the years.

    As for whether or not Warner would have survived here... who is to say? The Giants didn't provide very good protection for him. The Cardinals haven't either. Again, who is to say what would have happened if Warner had been allowed to lead the team in 2004? I say he'd have taken us to the Super Bowl, and there's no reason to believe we would have lost it. We had the team intact that year.. we just didn't have a QB who could operate under pressure. And what would have happened in 2005? Totally different draft.. totally different actions taken by the front office. Would they have been able to shore up the O-line? Winning begets winning, all things being equal... but.. again.. they front office doesn't have the character it takes to consistently win, so... you might be right about that too.
    Your right, a caller the other day on the radio said that we have more lawyers in our front office than any other team in the league. We have a better chance at winning a murder trial than a football game. I thought that was funny as hell, but realy until we get some REAL football people calling the shots for this team we are doomed to mediocrity at best.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Nice to see that your time away from the boards has allowed you to gain perspective and let things go, atcchris. Its a terrible thing when we hold grudges and are unable to move forward. You have truly evolved.
    Dunno Av, it sure seemed like a pretty dang accurate recap of Warner's last/Bulger's first year. And you can't really argue that Warner is able to read a defense quicker and get rid of the ball faster. When your line is in shambles, those are two of the most important skills you need...and that Bulger lacks.
    Last edited by RamFan_Til_I_Die; -09-19-2008 at 06:26 PM.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Warner never would have survived the last few years on the Rams. He was too worn down by the constant hits. At the time he was replaced by Bulger, Bulger was the better QB.

    A QB can only take so many hits before he is done. Warner was able to stay clean for a couple of years and get healthy. Now he's in a good situation and he's doing well (though I doubt he'll win the MVP again solely on the basis of two games against the Niners and Dolphins).

    Bulger may be wearing down now the way Warner was a few years ago. That does not mean that the Rams kept the wrong QB. Rather, it means that the Rams need to find a way to keep their QB on his feet, whoever that QB might be. Neither Warner in his prime, nor Bulger in his prime, or even Dan Marino in his prime, can read a defense and get rid of the ball quickly enough when there's no pocket to throw from.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Warner never would have survived the last few years on the Rams. He was too worn down by the constant hits. At the time he was replaced by Bulger, Bulger was the better QB.

    A QB can only take so many hits before he is done. Warner was able to stay clean for a couple of years and get healthy. Now he's in a good situation and he's doing well (though I doubt he'll win the MVP again solely on the basis of two games against the Niners and Dolphins).

    Bulger may be wearing down now the way Warner was a few years ago. That does not mean that the Rams kept the wrong QB. Rather, it means that the Rams need to find a way to keep their QB on his feet, whoever that QB might be. Neither Warner in his prime, nor Bulger in his prime, or even Dan Marino in his prime, can read a defense and get rid of the ball quickly enough when there's no pocket to throw from.
    I would add that the type of hit makes a big difference also. These two guys have taken some hits that people should'nt get up from. I would dare say that Bulger has taken more hits from a defender that has come in clean without so much as a touch than any QB in the league.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Bottom line... this is a silly debate, just as it was years ago. The Rams chose Bulger over Warner due to their performances in the 2002 and 2003 seasons. In those two seasons, their stats were as follows:

    Warner
    9 games played, 182/285 (63.9), 1,796 yards, 4 TDs, 12 Ints., 14 fumbles (5 lost), QB Rating: 68.7

    Bulger
    22 games played, 474/746 (63.5), 5,671 yards, 36 TDs, 28 Ints., 10 fumbles (8 lost), QB Rating: 87.2

    So, you can say whatever you want about Marz, or Brenda, or Kurt's Bible reading in the locker room, but in the end, it was a football decision. Marc was playing better, was healthier and was, of course, younger.

    Some will never let this go, but that's really all there is to it.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Some will never let this go, but that's really all there is to it.
    Your oversimplification isn't accurate. Bulger wasn't playing good football in 2003. Also, Warner was an injury-riddled 2002 removed from winning an MVP. I think the stat's you provided tell a much bigger picture. Warner led the Rams to two Super Bowls, won 2 MVP's, went to 2 Pro-Bowls, etc., etc., and he was determined to be expendable for less than 9 full games worth of statistics. Now, to top it all off, there was a fix for much of what ailed him(the fumbling) and the Rams had no interest in looking for it.

    But, like many of these conversations, it quickly gets lost that it's not so much "that" the Rams got rid of Warner, it's "how".

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    Now, to top it all off, there was a fix for much of what ailed him(the fumbling) and the Rams had no interest in looking for it.
    AH, yes... the "magic glove" argument...

    Let me ask you two questions:

    1. How do you know that the glove cured the fumbling problems? Maybe it is simply that Warner is not getting hit as much as he did when he was in the Martz Min-Protect Offense.

    2. How can you possibly assert that the Rams had "no interest" in looking for a solution to Warner's problems?

    The way I see it, the Rams recognized that Warner's horrible 2002 campaign was due, to a large extent, to injuries. That is why, despite the fact that Bulger's passer rating in 2002 was above 100, Warner was named the starter for the season opener.

    In that opener, he had an interception and 6 fumbles, and was not 100% healthy. Bulger was brought in and the rest is history.

    Now, is it reasonable to assert that Warner should have had another chance in 2003 to reclaim his spot? Absolutely. Bulger's play was uneven during that season, and perhaps Warner should have been given another chance.

    My point is this.... Assume that Warner was given another chance and, in fact, reclaimed his spot in 2003. I still don't think that Warner would be the Rams starter today. Warner was already battered at that point, and if he took all the hits that Bulger has taken from 2004 - today, I don't think he'd still be playing. You can only sustain so many hits (particularly when you've had concussions), and Warner needed the transition period as a backup to regain his health.

    Its unfortunate that it played out this way. Ultimately, though, the life span of a QB in the Martz system (which, in the short run, might even make a star out of journeyman schlepper J.T. O'WhatsHisFace), is not very long.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    How do you know that the glove cured the fumbling problems? Maybe it is simply that Warner is not getting hit as much as he did when he was in the Martz Min-Protect Offense.
    I've watched virtually every game Warner has played since he left the Rams, and the change in his play after he decided to use the gloves has been the difference between night and day. My question would be, if he's not fumbling as much as a result of getting hit less or being healthy, why is he still wearing the gloves? There's obviously no way to prove it, but IMO the gloves have made all the difference in the world and the fact that he always wears them reinforces that belief.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    I've watched virtually every game Warner has played since he left the Rams, and the change in his play after he decided to use the gloves has been the difference between night and day. My question would be, if he's not fumbling as much as a result of getting hit less or being healthy, why is he still wearing the gloves? There's obviously no way to prove it, but IMO the gloves have made all the difference in the world and the fact that he always wears them reinforces that belief.
    Not sure there's a clear cause and effect there. I mean... I wear underwear every day and I never wet my pants, but that does not mean that I would if I ever went commando.

    Besides, I'm not seeing the statistical evidence of this glove argument. Since he left the Rams, Warner has appeared in 42 games, starting 37, and has fumbled 43 times (more than once per game). Just last year, he appeared in 14 games, starting 11, and fumbled 12 times. Where's this major improvement you are speaking of?

    (In case you are wondering, over that same period, Bulger has played in/started 52 games and fumbled only 30 times)
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -09-20-2008 at 06:02 PM.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Where's this major improvement you are speaking of?
    Or major improvement you are speaking of.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    How do you know that the glove cured the fumbling problems? Maybe it is simply that Warner is not getting hit as much as he did when he was in the Martz Min-Protect Offense.
    Actually I think the gloves have helped transform his overall game as well as give him more confidence in holding on to the ball. He was much better in the second half of last year.

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    Re: Kurt warner

    This glove argument is a moving target.

    Let me just ask you this... do you really think Warner would be playing, and playing well, today if he had been with the Rams over the past few seasons?

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