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  1. #31
    HornIt's Avatar
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Oh my. Yea, Martz had nothing to do with '99. His work didn't begin until 2000. Sure.


    Look. Bottomline on this one.........it took every piece of that puzzle to create the GSOT. Take away any of it and it wouldn't be the GSOT, as I stated earlier. But to imply that Martz was just in the right place at the right time is rather fallacious.
    Well, we're getting closer at least.

    I generally agree with that last statement, but I do think that any good OC would have looked extremely good with that offensive cast. Would it have been the GSOT? I don't know, but would it have been superb enough to win championships? Probably.

    The fact that Martz never could recreate the GSOT or even keep a job without Warner, without Faulk, et all says a lot IMO. But his certain brand of damn the torpedos offense did certainly add some flavor that it might not have otherwise had and that was a rare group of players capable of pulling it off.

    Then I did watch Vermeil take Saunders with him to KC and create one heck of an offense there too.

    Does it seem like just coincidence to you that Warner's OC gets the HC job with the Rams after he leads them to the Super Bowl and now his OC in Arizona is going to get a HC job after he's led them to the Super Bowl? Is it something about Warner that can make and offense look special or is it Martz and Haley?


  2. #32
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    You know what would be helpful? If there was some way to determine how a different QB would have performed under the Martz system when the Rams still had Holt, Bruce, Faulk, Pace, etc.

    Oh... wait... there IS an example:

    Trent Green (2000)
    5 Games Started
    145-240 (.604)
    2,063 (412.6 ypg!)
    16 TDs/5 Ints.
    101.8 passer rating

    Wow! That almost makes it seem like the GSOT could actually function without Warner!

    Of course, that's probably just a fluke, right? Its not like there is another example, is there?

    Oh... wait... there IS another example:

    Marc Bulger (2002)
    7 games started
    138-214 (.645)
    1,826 yards (260.9 ypg)
    14 TDs/6 Int.
    101.5 passer rating

    Well I'll be! It almost seems like, during the heart of the Mike Martz/GSOT years, there were actually 3 QBs who performed at an extremely high level.

    Hmmmmmmmmm..............

  3. #33
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Well that's kind of funny since neither QB even played half a full season in the examples you cited.

    By the way, I don't think there's any doubt that Trent Green would have done very well in 99' had he not gotten hurt. He was a very good QB, as he went on to prove with his actual best years outside the GSOT and away from Martz in KC. I mean, wow! Saunders must have been a genius too.

    Also, I'm not sure anybody has argued that QB's put up big stats in Martz's offense. And that is certainly going to be the case when they have Faulk, Holt and Bruce around them.

    When you throw the ball a lot, big passing stats follow, including large sack and INT stats too. But obviously, Super Bowls don't always follow, unless you have a Kurt Warner there.

  4. #34
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Obviously there will always be a difference of opinion on this site regarding the "intangible" factor of warner. And since it's intangible, no numbers can resolve.

    Any QB could run the GSOT and have success, but how many could take that team to the SB?

    IMHO, two points:

    Bulger had homefield advantage with the GSOT and lost the playoff game.

    With the amount of times Warner was blitzed/pressured this year with the Cards, if they had Bulger (or most other QB's in the league for that matter) I really don't think they would be in the SB.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmk321 View Post
    That was incredibly biased and unprofessional. People are always changing their opinions about the NFL. Who at the time didn't think it was a better decision going with Bulger instead of Warner. If Bulger gets and o-line and has a pro bowl year next year then the post season talks will be completely different. Sports writers and journalists are the worst bandwaggoners of them all.

    I didn't think it was right at the time, and I never will. The facts show the truth; Martz' ego wasn't big enough to let Warner be subject to a Higher Power. Martz committed the "Cardinal Sin" (triple pun) of getting rid of his MVP quarterback because of injury, and of fooling himself (and a great many of you) that Bulger could actually do what Kurt could do. True, Bulger could be close, IF compared to an injured Warner straight up. But ONLY when compared to an injured Warner. Bulger NEVER had the ability to check down the receivers and look off the defenders. Bulger never had the pinpoint accuracy. He was good, but he wasn't Warner, not by a long shot.

    Warner took the same Rams talent that had been losing and turned it around. Warner did much better with the talent he had that Eli Manning did. Warner also made something out of Arizona when no one else could.

    This writer is dead on... the only thing he didn't do was to spell out the 2003 season in detail as I have in the past.

    Bernie sucks. Martz sucks. Everyone who had a part in the Rams losing Warner stink on ice.

    I am absolutely convinced the Rams would have gone much further in the playoffs in 2003 if Warner would have come back after the bye-week in 2003.

    And who knows what would have happened with that success. It feeds on itself. It's easier for incompetent GMs and player personnel people to find players to fit with the salary cap.

    But.. it wasn't to be. Martz showed that he was the boss, didn't he?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    You know what would be helpful? If there was some way to determine how a different QB would have performed under the Martz system when the Rams still had Holt, Bruce, Faulk, Pace, etc.

    Oh... wait... there IS an example:

    Trent Green (2000)
    5 Games Started
    145-240 (.604)
    2,063 (412.6 ypg!)
    16 TDs/5 Ints.
    101.8 passer rating

    Wow! That almost makes it seem like the GSOT could actually function without Warner!

    Of course, that's probably just a fluke, right? Its not like there is another example, is there?

    Oh... wait... there IS another example:

    Marc Bulger (2002)
    7 games started
    138-214 (.645)
    1,826 yards (260.9 ypg)
    14 TDs/6 Int.
    101.5 passer rating

    Well I'll be! It almost seems like, during the heart of the Mike Martz/GSOT years, there were actually 3 QBs who performed at an extremely high level.

    Hmmmmmmmmm..............
    I guess it doesn't matter who the opponents are, does it? <rolling eyes>

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    or Jeff Hostetler.....

    I have no beef you with you HornIt. You are actually quite entertaining to read. However, I just get so sick of everyone not giving Mike Martz one ounce of credit. It's always Warner, or Faulk, or someone else. Never Martz. Where were the Rams before Martz or after Martz?
    Martz - supersized ego > Martz + supersized ego

    Martz - ego disappeared when he became head coach. When he made his players kiss the ring, he became epic fail.
    Last edited by Nick; -02-02-2009 at 12:18 AM. Reason: No need for three back to back posts

  6. #36
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    The St. Louis Rams....

    pre-Martz: 22-42, 0 playoffs
    Martz: 66-35, 5 playoffs, 2-time NFC Champs, 1-time SB Champs
    post-Martz: 17-42, 0 playoffs
    pre-martz: The O-roster did not include several key players namely Faulk & Holt. Hakim and Proehl each had only 1 Rams season(98) pre-martz.

    post-martz: It's too bad he was fired. It would have been more fitting to see him go down with the ship in which he played a huge part in sinking.



    Then of course we can look at this another way:

    What did Martz ever do before the likes of Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Hakim, Proehl?

    And what has Martz done since the likes of Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Hakim, Proehl?

    And what great things did Martz accomplish with detroit?

    And what great things did Martz accomplish with SF?

    And where is Martz today?

    Exactly!



  7. #37
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Quote Originally Posted by atcchris View Post
    I guess it doesn't matter who the opponents are, does it? <rolling eyes>
    What is that even supposed to mean? When Green and Bulger ran up big numbers during the GSOT years it was against infererior opponents?

    Pretty weak retort, even for you.

  8. #38
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    You know what would be helpful? If there was some way to determine how a different QB would have performed under the Martz system when the Rams still had Holt, Bruce, Faulk, Pace, etc.

    Oh... wait... there IS an example:

    Trent Green (2000)
    5 Games Started
    145-240 (.604)
    2,063 (412.6 ypg!)
    16 TDs/5 Ints.
    101.8 passer rating
    The Rams also went 2-3 when Green started games in that season. Any good quarterback probably could do well in that system but nobody could run it as effectively as Kurt Warner from 1999-2001.

    Quote Originally Posted by atcchris View Post
    I didn't think it was right at the time, and I never will. The facts show the truth; Martz' ego wasn't big enough to let Warner be subject to a Higher Power. Martz committed the "Cardinal Sin" (triple pun) of getting rid of his MVP quarterback because of injury, and of fooling himself (and a great many of you) that Bulger could actually do what Kurt could do. True, Bulger could be close, IF compared to an injured Warner straight up. But ONLY when compared to an injured Warner. Bulger NEVER had the ability to check down the receivers and look off the defenders. Bulger never had the pinpoint accuracy. He was good, but he wasn't Warner, not by a long shot.
    You really don't think that going with Bulger was a good decision at that time. The Rams won every game he started in 2002 and took them to the playoffs as the number 1 seed in 2003. Kurt was really banged up and couldn't perform at the level he had in the 3 previous seasons. He has had to make adjustments to his game over the years and I doubt the Rams or Kurt Warner would be on top right now if he stayed in St. Louis and kept doing what he was doing.

    I also just argued 2 opposing views in 1 post...

  9. #39
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    The GSOT needed Martz and Faulk, although I always believed Warner was the lynchpin that brought it a championship. After witnessing him take over a very mediocre Matt Leinart led Cardinal team and taking them to the biggest stage in the world, my opinion certainly hasn't changed.

  10. #40
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Quote Originally Posted by jmk321 View Post
    The Rams also went 2-3 when Green started games in that season. Any good quarterback probably could do well in that system but nobody could run it as effectively as Kurt Warner from 1999-2001.
    Yeah, and in 2002, the Rams started 0-5 under Warner, and then started winning games under Bulger. What does that prove? QBs alone don't win or lose games.

    Besides, I never said that Green or Bulger was as good as Warner. But these stats show that there was a lot more to the GSOT than the QB.

  11. #41
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Quote Originally Posted by jmk321 View Post
    The Rams also went 2-3 when Green started games in that season. Any good quarterback probably could do well in that system but nobody could run it as effectively as Kurt Warner from 1999-2001.



    You really don't think that going with Bulger was a good decision at that time. The Rams won every game he started in 2002 and took them to the playoffs as the number 1 seed in 2003. Kurt was really banged up and couldn't perform at the level he had in the 3 previous seasons. He has had to make adjustments to his game over the years and I doubt the Rams or Kurt Warner would be on top right now if he stayed in St. Louis and kept doing what he was doing.

    I also just argued 2 opposing views in 1 post...
    No, I don't think going with Bulger was the right move.. after the bye week and before Atlanta. Warner was physically ready enough, and even slightly injured was a better package that Bulger at that time. Bulger feasted on inferior competition throughouth 2003, but showed that he wasn't really ready despite the Rams coming out on top.

    We would have beaten Carolina with Warner, no doubt about it.

  12. #42
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    What is that even supposed to mean? When Green and Bulger ran up big numbers during the GSOT years it was against infererior opponents?

    Pretty weak retort, even for you.
    I've broken this down for you before.. you ignored it then, you'll ignore it again.

    I'm not going to bother going through the 2003 year, game by game, AGAIN, showing you how Bulger really struggled against any decent team and showed a preview of what was going to come when they played someone decent in the playoffs.

    Martz' ego left his best player on the bench against the Panthers... we paid for it.

    We had a chance at being a dynasty, but we let it slip through our fingers due to Martz' petty nature and the front office inability or lack of desire to govern that.

    They thought they could win with just anyone.. and, yeah.. they won some games with Bulger, but they didn't have someone who could get them over the hill when the chips were down.... and now it's all laying in a heap of rubble, and all we have to show for it is 1 ring and 2 appearances in the big show.... and Bulger wasn't the one to thank for either of those.

    Most NFL teams have a lot of the parts they need to be a dynasty. The reason most don't get there is because it is hard to ENGINEER a dynasty, especially in these days of salary cap, etc. Most teams are just a few players away from it... but getting those last few is the hardest thing.. and having a QB like Warner drop into your lap is the best way to get over that hump... because you can obtain great RB and WR help... and a decent line.. as well as enough key players on defense ... but when you find the QB that's the general... being stupid enough to run him off just shows you don't understand the game... or that you think you're bigger than it.

    It reeks of the sort of Arrogance Jerry Jones displayed when running of Jimmy Johnson (as much as I despise him). Jerry thought he could win it all with 200 other coaches. He was right.. Switzer won another championship for the cryboys... but that was it... his dynasty was officially OVER the day he made that decision. It wasn't over the day entropy finally had its say a few years later.

    Same with the Rams. It was over when Martz decided to run Warner out of town. We were walking dead... we might just as well as hunkered down, broken up the GSOT right then, and started hoping for something as good to fall in our laps again.

  13. #43
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    pre-martz: The O-roster did not include several key players
    Nor did it include Martz.
    What did Martz ever do before the likes of Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Hakim, Proehl?
    IIRC, he was a QB coach for the Redskins.

    And what has Martz done since the likes of Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Hakim, Proehl?
    He was the OC in Detroit for a couple of years, then in SF for a year.

    And what great things did Martz accomplish with detroit?
    While great is a subjective term, he was able to post the 2 highest ranked Lions offenses of this decade.

    And what great things did Martz accomplish with SF?
    His 1 year as OC resulted in the highest ranked Whiners offense since Garcia and Owens left town half a decade ago.

    And where is Martz today?
    Can't say. I think he owns a home in San Diego. I'd bet he's hanging out there.



    I'll repeat for the umpteenth time........................the GSOT had to have every piece that it did have to be the GSOT; and, love him or hate him, Martz was one of those pieces.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  14. #44
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    Martz was one of those pieces.
    That's a better way to put it and that is also something I can agree with.

    One Piece
    in an entire organization which includes a 52 man roster, a complete coaching staff and a FO.

    One Piece is certainly not the...be all - end all...that some posts insinuate.




  15. #45
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    Re: Kurt Warner Silences Mike Martz and His Media Lapdog Bernie Miklasz

    52 man roster
    or even 53.

    And yes, I agree......entire organizations win; entire organizations lose.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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