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  1. #46
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by helorm341 View Post
    In fact, if it wasn't for Vermeil, we would have almost definetly gone out and gotten another QB when Trent Green got injured. Without Vermeil giving Warner the chance after Green gets injured we may not even have a trip to the superbowl. Let alone two and one victory.
    Actually the way I remember it is that Vermeil wanted to go and get Jeff Hostettler to replace Green and it was Martz who said no let's stick with Warner he has something. Martz is a QB guru and one of the best OC's ever. Martz also helped smooth over the Isaac Bruce Vermeil squabble. Let's not forget that before Martz got there we were horrible with Vermeil. So let's not take too much credit away from what Martz did and let's not give too much credit to Vermeil. They both had their hands in our Superbowl season, and they complimented each other perfectly.

    BRUUUUUUUUCE


  2. #47
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ferter
    The thing that I find absolutely fascinating, whenever Martz is discussed, is how much credit he is given for the Rams victory in SB34 and how much blame he is given for the Rams loss in SB36.
    Fascinating, indeed. And I admit I have probably been guilty of the former in Martz' defense against the latter. However, surely we can agree that without Martz, we would have not even been at 34 or 36. The same is true of Marshall Faulk, probably Kurt Warner, and Vermeil in '99, though. IMO, Martz, Faulk, Vermeil, and maybe/probably Warner are all names whose absence would have precluded the win in SB 34.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  3. #48
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by helorm341 View Post
    And that success was because of Martz? Vermeil built that team that continued into 2000-2001. To give Martz all the credit for the GSOT years is just ridiculous to me. Vermeil was responsible for all the players on that team. Especially the most important one, Warner. In fact, if it wasn't for Vermeil, we would have almost definetly gone out and gotten another QB when Trent Green got injured. Without Vermeil giving Warner the chance after Green gets injured we may not even have a trip to the superbowl. Let alone two and one victory.
    Bernie Miklasz would disagree:
    Quote Originally Posted by Miklasz
    But just because I like Dick personally, I can't gloss over the obvious sequence of events that led to the '99 championship. Vermeil hired Martz after being nudged to do so by Shaw. He signed Green after being nudged to do so by Martz. Shaw made the Faulk trade. Martz and Montgomery talked DV out of the tree when DV wanted to explore the possibility of trading Faulk in '99 training camp. Martz revived Isaac Bruce and played a role in preventing a trade that would have sent Bruce to the Redskins.

    This was a group effort. I'd break it down this way: DV badly needed help in personnel decisions. And Shaw, Armey, Martz and Zygmunt provided direction and insurance; they saved DV from himself on many occasions. (If someone in KC can do the same, Dick will win there). Once they basically removed Vermeil from his GM duties -- not officially, of course -- he did a helluva job coaching that '99 team.

    Why is this so difficult to understand?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #49
    helorm341 is offline Registered User
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce View Post
    Actually the way I remember it is that Vermeil wanted to go and get Jeff Hostettler to replace Green and it was Martz who said no let's stick with Warner he has something. Martz is a QB guru and one of the best OC's ever. Martz also helped smooth over the Isaac Bruce Vermeil squabble. Let's not forget that before Martz got there we were horrible with Vermeil. So let's not take too much credit away from what Martz did and let's not give too much credit to Vermeil. They both had their hands in our Superbowl season, and they complimented each other perfectly.
    Unless he was told to say this by someone else, at the press conference after the game where Green got hurt, Vermeil was being asked it they were going to get another QB and he said no, that they had a guy perfectly capable of doing the job in Kurt Warner, they weren't going to go and find someone else and that (The famous quote here) "we will rally around Kurt Warner, and we will play good football". Vermeil looked like he was about to cry when he said this, so I'd say he meant it.

    Unless that transpired in the time between the injury and the press conference after the game it seems to me he wanted Warner to be the QB. I could be totally wrong but that's just how to looks to me
    Last edited by helorm341; -07-12-2007 at 07:09 PM.

  5. #50
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Bernie Miklasz would disagree:

    I never heard that before. (where in the world do you dig up PD articles that old?) But I still stand by what I said. It sounds like he wanted to make some stupid trades and that Shaw was responsible for bringing Faulk in. But that article says he got his GM duties taken away in 99, so the team that won the superbowl was pretty much there besides Faulk (and maybe holt?).


    he did a helluva job coaching that '99 team.
    My whole point has been that you can't just give Martz all the credit for those winning years. It seems Mikalasz would agree with me here.

  6. #51
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by helorm341 View Post
    Unless he was told to say this by someone else, at the press conference after the game where Green got hurt, Vermeil was being asked it they were going to get another QB and he said no, that they had a guy perfectly capable of doing the job in Kurt Warner and that (The famous quote here) "we will rally around Kurt Warner, and we will play good football". Vermeil looked like he was about to cry when he said this, so I'd say he meant it.
    I probably should have been more clear because I was going off of memory when I said "Actually the way I remember it" So now that that's clear, maybe someone with better internet searching skills than I could find out the exact way it went down. I remember that press conference vividly but I don't remember it being right after the Chargers game where Green got hurt (now I might be wrong about that). I thought it was a few days later after they explored what they wanted to do at QB. I do know that Vermeil brought up Hostetler and wanted him at some point and Martz talked him out of it. Now maybe that was before we had Green (who Martz brought in also), maybe not, but my point still stands that Martz deserves a lot of credit for that 99 team. It wasn't the "Vermeil show" as you are suggesting.

    I also don't remember Martz ever being down on Warner so I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that it was all Vermeil giving Warner a chance. They obviously both had a say in it.

    Again I bring up the fact that Bruce was fed up with Vermeil and vice versa and Martz was the one to help smooth things over. Also as reported earlier in the thread Vermeil wanted to trade Faulk when he didn't show up to camp on time and Martz was one of the people to talk Vermeil out of it. So to put things in perspective they both worked well together and helped win a Superbowl, so let's not short change or overpay one or the other with too little or too much credit.
    BRUUUUUUUUCE


  7. #52
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    However, surely we can agree that without Martz, we would have not even been at 34 or 36. The same is true of Marshall Faulk, probably Kurt Warner, and Vermeil in '99, though. IMO, Martz, Faulk, Vermeil, and maybe/probably Warner are all names whose absence would have precluded the win in SB 34.
    Yes, I can agree to that simply because it is indeed fact with the above mentioned players and coaches. However, it is impossible to say what would have happened without one player or one coach.

    My point with the credit and blame statement, that I made, is something I have always took a strong stance on. IMO, it takes an entire team effort, from the head coach on down to the equiptment manager.


    Just to elaborate on some of the other posts:


    I won't entirely agree with Bernie M's statements. I think he embellishes the facts just a tad. I have tried, in past years, to find the article on the net for other fans to read, but it is not to be found. However, it does exist in the SI book that gets put out every year, after an NFL team wins the SB. If you have the book, which I do, it is in there to read.

    DV realized he had been out of the game for an extended time. Shaw might have made suggestions, but DV knew he needed help. Also, DV finally realized he was going nowhere with Banks as the QB. DV subsequently hand picked Martz for an interview. They met in a motel room after the senior bowl. I believe it was in Mobile AL. DV was so impressed with Martz that he hired him on the spot.

    As far as the other things related to Bruce, Faulk, the QB and the unmentioned brutal training camps.....So what, it simply doesn't matter. DV trusted Martz. Martz was his hand picked guy at that point. Ultimately he went with what his guy thought best. DV went with his own instinct and trust via Martz' instinct. This was a small part of the chemistry and team effort that is seemingly so hard for some to grasp.

    Martz was not so trusting of his own OC once he became the head coach. Hard to say for certain, but I think he tried to take too much on himself and quite possibly it could have hampered the team to some extent.


    LETS GO RAMS


    :l

  8. #53
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedArcher7 View Post
    Martz didn't draft Bulger. He aslo said Fitz was the best QB in his draft, if that's so and you're the only one who knows it, why take him higher when there's good players to be taken in front of him if you know he's gonna be around. His big QB mistake was not drafting Brady Quinn...Already said, great OC revolutionary even, but bad, bad head coach.
    Don't owe Martz squat!!!!!! Was a pigheaded , ego maniac, who needs to realize he will never be a good HC and Should have stayed in STL one or two more years as an OC. We would have won 3 SB's. Martz needs a big supporting cast to make up for his almost ridiculous offensive moves. And time clock management, But as a head coach , he needs too much power and doesn't let people around who may question his calls! He and Dick had a great thing and the Bum blew it!!!!!!! He was a good OC, but like I said there were people who kept him in check in those days. that's why he had any success at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I stopped going to the dentist.......I got tired of the cavity searches!

  9. #54
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Not an entirely absurd premise. 3 or 4 plays... Change them, and Martz is in the discussion of "Greatest Rams Head Coaches," instead of a punch line.
    3 or 4 plays? Marshall Faulk hardly got the ball that game. I say Martz needed a completely different gameplan.

  10. #55
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    Re: Lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Light Guy View Post
    3 or 4 plays? Marshall Faulk hardly got the ball that game. I say Martz needed a completely different gameplan.

    Hmm, well, I wouldn't doubt Marshall Faulk actually took part in devising that game plan!

  11. #56
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    ok.. now lets take a moment to discuss how big of a back stabber mike martz is.. why would he go to the 9ers... now that just hurts. I blame Linehan for that too.

  12. #57
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Lets move this thread to the scrap heap and move on. There is no need to dig up old posts about an old HC that is now in his second stop with another team. Who ever wants to talk about Martz can probably find plenty of action in Detroit where they just let him go or SF where they just hired him. This thread is two city's removed from being classified as RAMTALK forum material.

  13. #58
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Martz is a idiot!!!!!!!
    I stopped going to the dentist.......I got tired of the cavity searches!

  14. #59
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    Mike Martz was the best thing to ever happen to football being played in St. Louis, and one could argue the best ever to happen to the Rams organization. The Rams would never have had the Super Bowl win without Martz. Isaac Bruce would not be a Ram today without Martz. Marshall Faulk would never have been a Ram without Martz. The world as Kurt Warner knows it would have never happened with Martz.

    For those of you who think he sucks as a HC but wish to give Linehan a pass, go lookup the records of the HC's for the Rams and see where Martz stands. I'm tired of doing it for everyone.
    Last edited by txramsfan; -01-25-2008 at 02:28 PM.

  15. #60
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    Re: lets take a moment for Mike Martz appreciation!!

    This thread should be lets show appreciation for Martz the offensive co-ordinator because he was a terrible coach. I find it hard to appreciate being ok with turning the ball over again and again. I know the players turned it over but he was ok with it, it wasnt a big deal. I find it hard appreciating abandoning the running game at times where running the ball more is what the Rams needed at times. I find it hard appreciating letting the defense go to waste and drafting Trung Canidate with a 1st round pick. I find it hard to appreciate him not worrying about the defense and hiring Marmie. I find it hard to appreciate the lack of discipline his team showed while he was coach i.e(penalties and turnovers).

    Now what I can appreciate is as an offensive co-ordinator where he was working with a head coach was able to help guide one of the best offenses to ever step foot on the field. I will contend to the day I die if we had kept Vermiel and either let Martz go or paid him more to be o-coordinator we would have beaten the Pats in the Superbowl and probably went with Bulger at the healm when they played the Panther and lost. You never play for overtime I'm sure all the NFL great coaches were grumbling when he played for the tie with a defense that had surrendered over 200 yds rushing already. So I would like to show my appreciation for Martz as Offensive coordinator but not for his offensive head coaching abilities. He ran a potential dynasty into the ground with help from a terrible front office I should also mention.
    Just Fix It

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