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  1. #16
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    That's your prerogative, Nick.


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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Yeah, I suppose so. Especially since I don't really have a reason not to believe Warner about that. If that time didn't benefit him, I'm sure a better answer could have been given that doesn't flat-out lie about the benefits of that experience.

    Seems he said the same thing to Bernie as well...

    I get so tired of this simplistic viewpoint.

    Warner would have probably ended up in a wheelchair had he stayed in STL to absorb more horrific beatings in the Martz offense. I'd even go as far to suggest his career would be over by now.

    Getting away from it and getting a chance to heal up was the best thing that could have happened for him. And he has told me as much.

    -B

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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Yeah, I suppose so. Especially since I don't really have a reason not to believe Warner about that. If that time didn't benefit him, I'm sure a better answer could have been given that doesn't flat-out lie about the benefits of that experience.

    Seems he said the same thing to Bernie as well...

    Quote:
    I get so tired of this simplistic viewpoint.

    Warner would have probably ended up in a wheelchair had he stayed in STL to absorb more horrific beatings in the Martz offense. I'd even go as far to suggest his career would be over by now.

    Getting away from it and getting a chance to heal up was the best thing that could have happened for him. And he has told me as much.

    -B
    I think it's a true statement if you assume that nothing could change with respect to the offense.

    Essentially, the Rams chose Martz's offense and the beatings it delivers to it's QB's over Warner and a lengthy career in St. Louis in this case.

    Wrong choice IMO.

    I think it's true that Warner needed to stop taking the beatings and that was good for his career, like it is and would be for any QB. It's just a shame there weren't people in the building with the authority to do something about it who realized that at the time.

  4. #19
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    I dont think mkurt would happily have sat on the bench for a season or two whilst the coaches say'we would like to rest you and save your career so you can lead us back to the superbowl in 4 years or so'. No competitor would have happily sat out.

    Getting a decent team around him and a better coach however.. Thats the real tragedy, For all we loved martz whilst he was here, he got rid of so many good players, replaced them poorly, drafted awfully and look at us now, Gee thanks Mike!!

    Back on topic!
    The rest did him great and this year he has found his old form, that is the only information we have. He was getting beat up as rams qb, that was a fact too. He lost his form, due to those beatings.

    Would he have lead us back to the superbowl? I would say no, he would probably out of football now if he stayed a ram, but anyone can beg to differ, we really will NEVER know for sure. Bulger beat him out, younger and healthier and at that point not yet beaten, if less naturally gifted nonetheless.

    Look at Bulger now, from pro bowl mvp to deperately average in 2 years of beatings.

    Kurt was having a torid time with the rams. I was at the game where kurt fumbled 6 times (at new york). All the fans could not beleave he was still in the game and there wasn't a single person who didn't think he was washed up.

    The giants fans were laughing at him. I dont see how any kurt lover could wish anything other than a new team and a new start for the guy. It saved him. Bulger maybe isn't a better qb, more so now he is mentally ruined like kurt was, but at that point in time kurt needed out of here. Time and a decent team has got him back there. It is great, but how I wish the rams could have held onto a few decent players and held onto dick vermiel a while longer. I really am sick of losing, watching Fletcher, Bly, Warner, Bruce and others all do well in other uniforms hurts me.

    I wish Kurt all the best and would love to see him in canton. (even though it will distroy me to see the photo of him in a cardinals jersey.) Watching him take the eagles apart last night and see him smile after the game brought back great memories and feelings.
    These feelings dont cloud my sense though, kurt was better off out of rams park.
    I cant wish the cardinals victory, as I am a rams fan.

    I'll just pretend, for one day, that kurt has a rams Tee shirt on under his Jersey during the game.

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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Quote Originally Posted by rampower View Post
    I dont think mkurt would happily have sat on the bench for a season or two whilst the coaches say'we would like to rest you and save your career so you can lead us back to the superbowl in 4 years or so'. No competitor would have happily sat out.
    I doubt anybody has suggested that.

    A reasonable suggestion in my opinion, however, would have been to do what they did for Marc Bulger when they first inserted him into the offense. Dial Max Q down a tad, more max protection, fewer empty backfields, more running, fewer game plans that rested squarely on the QB's shoulders.

  6. #21
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    I don't think anyone has ever said that Marc Bulger, at his best, was as good or better than Kurt Warner, at his best.

    The issue was Kurt's decline (largely due to his hand injury and the pounding he took under the Martz "free shot at the QB" offensive scheme) which coincided with Bulger's ascension. The Rams had to make a choice, and I still think they made the right one.

    Had Kurt remained with the Rams, he would have been subjected to the beating that Marc took over the last few years. I doubt he would have made it through that at his age and with the mileage he already had at that time.

    So, by all means, we should be happy for Kurt. But that does not mean if he stayed we'd be planning trips to Tampa.

  7. #22
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    OMG, still on the Warner thing eh? You know, I heard he and Barak were going to part the seas, solve global warming, cure all forms of diseases, and make this world the cumbaya it should be.

    At least some fans of both think so.

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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    OMG, still on the Warner thing eh? You know, I heard he and Barak were going to part the seas, solve global warming, cure all forms of diseases, and make this world the cumbaya it should be.

    At least some fans of both think so.
    Naw, Barak is going to lower the sea levels, make terrorists love us and solve a financial crisis of dept and spending through more debt and more spending.

    Warner is just going to win another Super Bowl.

  9. #24
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Of course it helped his career, if for no other reason because it helped him heal completely physically. As for rustiness, doesnt he look a lot better this year than last year? Part of that may indeed be shaking off the rust, but the bulk of it is a LOT better pass protection.

    The bottom line is as evil disco man posted. Playing on the rams would have gotten him killed behind this offensive line. Bulger may have no mobility, warner has even less.

    If you put bulger on the cards, with fitz and boldin, he would have a great year as well. I am thrilled for warner, i hope he brings arizona the title.

    By the way, brenda looks a LOT better with long blond hair than with the buzz cut.

    ramming speed to all

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  10. #25
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Quote Originally Posted by HornIt View Post
    I doubt anybody has suggested that.

    A reasonable suggestion in my opinion, however, would have been to do what they did for Marc Bulger when they first inserted him into the offense. Dial Max Q down a tad, more max protection, fewer empty backfields, more running, fewer game plans that rested squarely on the QB's shoulders.
    Absolutely, but without the rest and ability to get his confidence back, he would not have returned to his best. Thats my point, nobody would have happily sat out as back up for a year or 2. I doubt he would have been asked to do so,as you say. I also doubt we could afford both qb's on our books either.

    We can argue the toss that if the rams had changed their offence etc etc, but in the long run they didn't, they did a great job of beating Marc Bulger up too over the last couple of years.

    As with all football decisions, it was a gamble. A gamble that kurt was never gonna be the player he was. Until this year, he mostly wasn't.
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    Arrow Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Quote Originally Posted by rampower View Post
    Absolutely, but without the rest and ability to get his confidence back, he would not have returned to his best. Thats my point, nobody would have happily sat out as back up for a year or 2. I doubt he would have been asked to do so,as you say. I also doubt we could afford both qb's on our books either.

    We can argue the toss that if the rams had changed their offence etc etc, but in the long run they didn't, they did a great job of beating Marc Bulger up too over the last couple of years.

    As with all football decisions, it was a gamble. A gamble that kurt was never gonna be the player he was. Until this year, he mostly wasn't.

    It doesn't change the the perspective that they handled it incorrectly though. They did, IMO. They should have protected him and taken some of the pressure off of him rather than kicking him to the curb. It's as simple as that for me.

    I also don't agree with the take that he mostly wasn't the same player. I think he always was, but he was playing on some very bad football teams. The Giants were horrible, but they were 5-3 with Warner as a starter and only won 1 game the rest of the way once they replaced him with Manning. He played behind some bad O-lines with them and the Cards, as bad as the Rams is now. But he still put up numbers and very respectable QB ratings. It's not Warner that's suddenly changed again, it's that they can protect him now and have a better plan and players around him now.

    When the Cardinals first signed him after his year with the Giants, Denny Green said they looked at every play he played with the Giants and what they saw was the same guy who, when he got the protection, still made great decisions and was deadly accurate. That's why they signed him. That's what I saw too. People act like the guy who posted 85 and above QB ratings on some of those bad teams was just horrible. I don't get that.

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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Kurt Warner still is the most knocked down quarterback in the NFL. Just throwing that out there. When you are in an offense that throws the ball most of the time you're gonna get hit and Warner is willing to take the hit and still make the great throw.

  13. #28
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Quote Originally Posted by HornIt View Post
    It doesn't change the the perspective that they handled it incorrectly though. They did, IMO. They should have protected him and taken some of the pressure off of him rather than kicking him to the curb. It's as simple as that for me.

    I also don't agree with the take that he mostly wasn't the same player. I think he always was, but he was playing on some very bad football teams. The Giants were horrible, but they were 5-3 with Warner as a starter and only won 1 game the rest of the way once they replaced him with Manning. He played behind some bad O-lines with them and the Cards, as bad as the Rams is now. But he still put up numbers and very respectable QB ratings. It's not Warner that's suddenly changed again, it's that they can protect him now and have a better plan and players around him now.

    When the Cardinals first signed him after his year with the Giants, Denny Green said they looked at every play he played with the Giants and what they saw was the same guy who, when he got the protection, still made great decisions and was deadly accurate. That's why they signed him. That's what I saw too. People act like the guy who posted 85 and above QB ratings on some of those bad teams was just horrible. I don't get that.
    It should have been handled better, but wasn't. And now we have done the same to bulger. And people can't wait to get rid of him, nobody sees that we have done exactly the same thing to bulger, but that doesn't matter, obviously.

    That in itself shows warner leaving was the right thing, for him. You answer the question perfectly when you state he has been on some bad football teams, which does not help. Give him time and argueably the best receiver in football and he will play well. I'm quite sure most top tier qb's would perform better on an NFC championship winning team than a team that has won 5 games in 2 years. When Kurt left here Bulger was playing the better football, for whatever reason. Reasons we cannot change and didn't change as bulger has taken the same beating and looks a shadow of his former self. Even Gus did better at Minesota than he did here, for a while anyways. Both at the giants warner got benched in favour of a younger qb, for whatever reason, you'll have to ask them. If Leinart had played a bit better we wouldn't be talking about this.

    I remember before the rams-cards game this season a cardinals fan on this very site, said the cards will win depending on which warner turns up. Even his own fans were questioning him 3 months ago?????????????????


    Its a team sport and Martz/Front office destroyed this team with poor drafting and Free Agency losses and additions, with or without Warner.

    I'd best stop posting on this subject because I realise there is just nowhere to go.
    Last edited by rampower; -01-20-2009 at 07:17 AM.
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  14. #29
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    Quote Originally Posted by rampower View Post
    It should have been handled better, but wasn't. And now we have done the same to bulger. And people can't wait to get rid of him, nobody sees that we have done exactly the same thing to bulger, but that doesn't matter, obviously.
    I think we agree for the most part. I don't think the exact same thing is being done to Bulger though. I think there are some similarities in that Bulger isn't getting much help right now either and will surely play better again when he does, but he's also been given a FAR longer rope than Warner ever was. And I don't think Bulger at his best is anywhere near as good as Warner is at his best.

    The key to me is that Warner wasn't just a guy that could do pretty well in the right surroundings. He was a special player. Is a special player. You give him the right surroundings and magic happens. You give Bulger the right surroundings and you'll get some wins but not much else.

    Bulger, if given good support, is a good enough QB to win some games. But one of the things he requires is for there to be other leadership on the field, because he isn't a leader himself. And I've always been a firm believer that you need strong leadership first and foremost at the QB position, unless of course, you have a special defense that can carry you through to championships.

    Kurt Warner's just don't come around very often. You just don't squander that away when they do. When you have that, you nurture it, you cultivate it and you protect it. Obviously, the Rams/Martz did a lousy job of that. I think the same is true of Marshall Faulk's by the way. And when you have two guys like that on offense, well, you get what we got for a brief but bright period of time.

  15. #30
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    Re: Looks like warner was the better qb after all....

    I think its very hard to follow the GSOT, as you say, its like we have been asleep for 4 years.

    Bulger has been given a longer rope, but then we dont have a qb in waiting, who has come in when the starter has been injured and shown themselves to be more effective than the starter at that point in time, if that was the case, they probably would have booted bulger out to another team. Frerote, green, berlin all looked quite poor in relief.

    I know Bulger isn't the qb kurt was from 99-02 or the qb he is now, but I sure hope spags can help mend our mess on D and O. Then we can start winning some games.

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