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  1. #31
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Holy misplaced responsbility Batman! ... Williams performance is irrelevant to the enforcement of rules.
    I had to read this post again to see what was troubling me about this statement Robin. We accept he made choices. We also accept that he was subjected to a regime of drug testing that is an unconstitutional abridgment of his 4th and 5th Amendments. Regardless of whether the Supreme Court convinces you to believe that trash about bodily fluids NOT being evidence, testing is UnAmerican for Americans.

    Performance is relevant. The rule only exists because the presumption exists that someone else knows better than us and that we have been given an unvarnished view of the truth. If performance is not in jeopardy, then the rule is illegitimate. His performance demonstrates the fact that the reason for the rule is a fiction. Enforcing rules for the sake of enforcement is wrong.

    You'll have to excuse me for a moment Robin, I think I hear the BatFone ringing.


  2. #32
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by adarian_too
    We also accept that he was subjected to a regime of drug testing that is an unconstitutional abridgment of his 4th and 5th Amendments.
    Um... exactly what part of the 4th and/or 5th Amendments prohibits a private entity such as the NFL from conducting drug screening? If you'd like to actually read the Constitution, I'm sure it would be easy to find with a Google search.

    His performance demonstrates the fact that the reason for the rule is a fiction.
    Who said the rule that prohibits players from smoking pot is performance driven. The reason for the rule is two-fold. One, smoking pot is ILLEGAL (if you don't like that fact, find a candidate that will support legalization and volunteer for his or her campaign). Two, the rule is designed to prevent the use of other drugs as well that could be argued to be performance ENHANCING. While pot may not have that characteristic, the NFL need not make such fine distinctions when banning the use of narcotics in general.

  3. #33
    BigGame is offline Registered User
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by afrightertoo
    If you were talking about alcohol, I'd take your point. But I'm not convinced that smoking hemp products leads to misguided behavior.
    Well then you have your belief, and I have mine. Maybe I just get really high, but as I suggested, I often make decisions, and evaluate the repercussions of decisions differently when I am under the influance of weed, as well as alcohol.

  4. #34
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by adarian/afrighter
    We accept he made choices
    It's not the acceptance of the fact that he made a choice that I question, it's the notion that he should bear no responsibility for any consequence of that choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by same as above
    We also accept that he was subjected to a regime of drug testing that is an unconstitutional abridgment of his 4th and 5th Amendments
    The Bill of Rights protects individuals from the Government, in particular the Federal Government. The NFL is not a governmental unit, therefore, Williams 4th & 5th amendment rights have not been violated (as I understand it).
    testing is UnAmerican for Americans
    Local, county, state, & federal prison facilities are filled with people that will wholeheartedly agree with that statement.
    The rule only exists because the presumption exists that someone else knows better than us and that we have been given an unvarnished view of the truth
    If you believe that you know how to run the NFL better than those in charge now, then by all means, write the Commissioner's office, make some phone calls, gain status with the League and let your opinions be known. But until then it is not up to you, me, or Ricky Williams to make or interpret the rules.
    If performance is not in jeopardy, then the rule is illegitimate
    Little's performance has never been hampered by his drunk driving, but he was suspended. Jamal Lewis's performance never suffered from the drug deal he brokered, yet he was suspended. Rules are not established to blanket the performances of athletes.
    Enforcing rules for the sake of enforcement is wrong.
    Neither is 2nd guessing them based on an opinion.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  5. #35
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Adarian, why two different screen names? Are there others? Whatever the case may be, I still think your posts are a hoot!

  6. #36
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Is marijuana really that good?
    You know, I really don't understand why people, who are interested in finding out what something is like, don't simply try it for themselves.


    :tongue:

  7. #37
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Some of us, believe it or not, respect the law and wish to set a good example for our kids.


    Go figure.

  8. #38
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Some of us, believe it or not, respect the law and wish to set a good example for our kids.
    Well let's hope no kids are influenced by the habits of adults who have posted under this thread.

    Oh and everyone, please respect the posted speed limit on all highways, because speeding, in excess of the posted limit, is against the law.



  9. #39
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    I also might add that the question posed in the title of the thread is a sarcastic rhetorical question. I guess you missed that.

  10. #40
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    It's not that the drug is that good, it's that he is consumed by it that it directs his decision making. He could have made the same decision over alcohol, like Phillips or cocaine like Caminiti, it doesn't matter which substance it is. I will predict though that someone who makes choices like this will probably have further run-ins down the road until he can give it up.

    Just my two cents...

    Joe
    Last edited by MoonJoe; -10-24-2004 at 12:39 PM.

  11. #41
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Um... exactly what part of the 4th and/or 5th Amendments prohibits a private entity such as the NFL from conducting drug screening? If you'd like to actually read the Constitution, I'm sure it would be easy to find with a Google search.
    Thanks for the idea. Probably couldn't have come up with it without you. And because I don't want you to have to dust off those ConLaw books again, here is the text of those two amendments. What would you be looking for in them that you wouldn’t find in Emanuel’s or the BarBri’s versions of ConLaw you may ask?

    Why under the Four Corner’s Test, there is no reference to the fact that the rights aren’t applicable to society at large, any time, any where. You will also always believe I imagine that it is also okay to penalize a person for voicing their opinion in a public forum about publicly visible events like referee calls. That is conventional wisdom. It is popular wisdom. It is profitable wisdom. It is to be expected. It is, however, not meaningful wisdom.

    AMENDMENT IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmations, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    AMENDMENT V

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.


    In no time at all, the War on Drugs, although recently over-shadowed by the War on Terrorism, has managed to make a mockery of nearly the entire Constitution. Consider this: since the War on Drugs commenced, we have seen the emergence of mandatory minimum sentences, in violation of the Eighth Amendment. The creation of drug courts, in violation of the Sixth Amendment. That War has led to drug testing in schools, in disregard of the Fifth Amendment. It has led to no-knock warrants and to increasingly lowered standards of probable cause for search and seizure, in open contempt of the Fourth Amendment. It has been used to justify stronger laws against guns, in violation of the Second Amendment, and restrictions on commercial speech, in violation of the First. Of course, the War on Drugs wouldn’t be possible if the federal government obeyed the Tenth Amendment, and if the states respected the rights of Americans under the Ninth.

    But I go off on a tangent, you wanted to talk about the private sector. To ensure ratification of the Constitution, it was agreed that amendments would be added to acknowledge there were certain rights and freedoms so sacred to the individual they could not be removed or suppressed, either by the government or the "tyranny of the majority." While the wealthy and powerful are often the ones most capable of protecting their constitutional rights, they are also the ones most capable of denying those rights to others through the use of corporate structures. In the 18th century, when the Constitution and Bill of Rights were ratified, the government was viewed as the only major threat to individual rights. The Founders could not have imagined back then that, one day, concentrations of corporate power would exist on a scale rivaling, and in some cases exceeding, governmental power.

    If you want to believe the Corporation should be embued with natural individual rights to protect itself but not be obliged to protect those very same natural individual rights in its associations, nothing I could say would change your mind. And you have the Supreme Court on your side so there is no reason you should.

  12. #42
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGame
    Well then you have your belief, and I have mine.
    And your opinion is very important. Any legitimate discussion of the costs and benefits of changing the laws depends on creditable studies that objectively catalog the psychotropic effects that weed has on the cognitive system.


    Maybe I just get really high, but as I suggested, I often make decisions ... differently when I am under the influance of weed ....
    It is an interesting question. It truely is.

  13. #43
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    adarian, you seem to think that, in correcting your erroneous interpretation of the Constitution, I was expressing an opinion on how things should be. I was not. I was expressing an opinion on how things are.


    As it is, the Fourth and Fifth Amendments place restrictions upon what the Government may do, not what private businesses (such as the NFL) may do.

    That is the way it is, and your rambling denouncement upon the Government's "war on drugs" notwithstanding, its the way it always will be. Indeed, even if the Government decided to legalize marijuana, the NFL could (and probably would) continue to ban it, much in the same way it bans legal "performance enhancing" substances.

    Now... with respect to how it should be...

    Private employers have the right to decide the manner in which they want their employees to behave. Whether it be dress codes, anti-fraternization policies or drug-free workplace policies, that is their right.

    To suggest it should be otherwise is (using your word) un-American.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -10-28-2004 at 10:10 AM.

  14. #44
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Well let's hope no kids are influenced by the habits of adults who have posted under this thread.
    Kids could do worse. For ...

    "Habit is habit, and not to be flung out of the window by any man, but coaxed downstairs a step at a time." - (Twain, 1894)

  15. #45
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    Re: Is marijuana really that good?

    Of course, Sammy Clemons also said...
    "To cease smoking is the easiset thing I ever did. I ought to know, I've done it a thousand times." Mark Twain
    And while we're quoting...
    "I tried marijuana once. I did not inhale." Bill J. Clinton
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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