Ndamukong Suh is a dirty player

[Trevor]

To think half this board wanted Suh over Bradford. So glad we didn't draft him. Great player but not the type of attention we need.

[Nick]

I'm really beginning to wonder if this is an attitude that Schwartz instills in the players he coaches.

To follow up on this, the Suh-less Lions certainly weren't angels when they faced the Saints in primetime last night. Some quotes from ESPN:

Ndamukong Suh's teammates didn't seem to get the message sent by his two-game suspension. They had at least three inexcusable post-whistle personal fouls. Receiver Titus Young cost his team a goal-line opportunity and forced it to settle for a field goal. Kick returner Stefan Logan threw the ball at the Saints' Will Herring after a return, and tight end Brandon Pettigrew was penalized for trying to kick and trip Saints safety Roman Harper. That was 45 lost yards right there. Scrutiny will increasingly turn to Lions coach Jim Schwartz to get this team under control.

The Lions hurt themselves with 11 penalties for 107 yards, including three offensive pass interference penalties and a personal foul on tight end Brandon Pettigrew for shoving an official who was trying to get between him and Saints safety Roman Harper after the whistle.

This sounds like a team-wide culture rather than just one guy who had a near impeccable reputation in college suddenly flipping a switch and becoming a dirty player. Certainly the players deserve criticism for not playing within the confines at the rules, but too many Lions have had issues with this for me to think that it doesn't stem from Schwartz putting something in the water there.

[r8rh8rmike]

Certainly the players deserve criticism for not playing within the confines at the rules, but too many Lions have had issues with this for me to think that it doesn't stem from Schwartz putting something in the water there.

He must be putting stupid pills in the water because the Lion's players are a bunch of complete idiots. If it wasn't bad enough that Titus Young threw a punch with an official a foot away, Brandon Pettigrew one-upped him by actually slappping an official. STUPID.

As for Suh, although I think you make a valid point about the culture Schwartz seems to be trying to create, he has a brain and should know the difference between playing aggresively and playing dirty. Stomping on an opponent is inexcusable under any circumstances and is a choice Suh made that he's 100% accountable for. IMO, regardless of the circumstances, Suh is a dirty player.

[Nick]

The stomp was definitely dirty and inexcusable in nature, and I agree that these players have no excuse for crossing that line. But it's tough for me to label Suh (or any of these Lions, really) as dirty players when the real culprit seems to be Jim Schwartz and the culture he's promoting. Rather, I think they're engaging in dirty behavior because in some manner their head coach is sending a message that doing so is tough and that they shouldn't back down.

Given his past association with Albert Haynesworth when Big Al stomped on Gurode's head, I don't think this is a case of the inmates running the asylum. I really believe Schwartz may be a bad influence on these young men. After Suh's meeting with Goddell, which Schwartz attended, there was no reason for this to happen again. After Suh's suspension, it definitely shouldn't. But it has, and to me, that points right at the head coach who is supposed to be providing the leadership for this team. He's leading them, but in the wrong direction.

Let's keep in mind that Suh was highly regarded as a mature and well-respected prospect when he came out. Albert Breer had a piece on NFL.com this week where a scout and GM both expressed complete shock over the situation, because they had no flags on Suh coming out of college. That's why, when the question was posed by ramsanddodgers, I responded by saying that I doubt Suh would behave like this under a different regime. I think if there was any doubt, last night's Saints game illustrated that the problems are way beyond one or even a couple individuals, but rather the guy supposedly leading them.

[r8rh8rmike]

I've seen tons of blogs and message boards that are saying the same things you are, that Suh was not dirty in any way while at Nebraska and that Schwatz is the culprit here, but I'm not buying it. After the Jake Delhomme head twisting incident, Suh himself defiantly stated he wasn't going to change the way he plays. Up till now, he hasn't.

Again, my point is that Suh makes the ultimate decisions on how far he takes things on the field, not Schwartz. The majority of Lions players have no problems with dirty play, Suh does. We'll see if the suspension makes any difference, but I'll bet it doesn't.

[Rambos]

So is it the coach and the way he is teaching all the lions players to play with a big chip. Or does lying to the police after you crashed a car at at 1:30 am. indicate this guy has issues. You just got national attention for being an idiot and while you are suspended you go out and crash a car... ok we where all young once and did stupid things. But it bothers me that he would lies to cover up his actions.

Suh clearly has an on-field rage problem. But does he have an off-field rage issue? The evidence is still scant. According to a Portland Police Bureau report, two women told police Suh was driving "too fast" before the crash.

If that's true -- and I emphasize IF -- I wouldn't worry too much about the accident. I'd worry about his explanation. It would be the second time in two weeks that Suh concocted a story after he messed up. That would be a sign that Suh is living in his own world, where he can do no wrong.

Updated Dec 6, 2011 1:53 PM ET


Two women say they were injured when Detroit Lions defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh crashed his car into a tree in downtown Portland over the weekend


Portland police had originally said there were no injuries in the accident early Saturday. But police said Monday that two passengers later came forward to say they were hurt and left the scene before officers arrived.

Sgt. Pete Simpson says one woman reported bruises and soreness, and the other reported a cut to her forehead and a black eye. Their names were not released.

One of the women said in an interview with KGW-TV on Monday: "When the light turned green, he floored it. I just remember going so fast and it was violent and just getting thrown around like rag dolls."

She also told the television station that she came forward to amend the police report after Suh promised to do it but never did.

According to the passenger, she also told Suh that she was hurt. "I just said, 'I'm hurt and I need to go to the hospital,'" she said in the interview.

But she said Suh's response to her was, "You're fine."

According to police, the women left the scene of the accident before they arrived to avoid attention and seek medical assistance.

A witness who called 9-1-1 to report the crash also spoke to KGW on Monday, saying that the driver "floored it" when a stoplight turned green in an attempt to "show off" with screeching tires.

The witness also told the television station that there were no cars in front of Suh's vehicle, and he did not see a taxicab either. He said he watched the vintage car hit a light pole, a fountain and then crash into a tree.

Suh told police he was trying to avoid a stopped taxicab when he lost control of the 1970 Chevrolet Coupe.

Police say Suh was not impaired and was not cited. They are not re-opening the investigation.

Suh declined to comment to KGW-TV.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Nick]

So is it the coach and the way he is teaching all the lions players to play with a big chip. Or does lying to the police after you crashed a car at at 1:30 am. indicate this guy has issues. You just got national attention for being an idiot and while you are suspended you go out and crash a car... ok we where all young once and did stupid things. But it bothers me that he would lies to cover up his actions.

We have no idea who is lying in this case; there are some rather strange aspects to the story being told now by one of the women. According to an ESPN article on this, no witnesses reported any victims or said that Suh was driving recklessly. The Portland police department is not reopening its investigation in light of this development, so I don't see much here to get worked up about.

[Rambos]

We have no idea who is lying in this case; there are some rather strange aspects to the story being told now by one of the women. According to an ESPN article on this, no witnesses reported any victims or said that Suh was driving recklessly. The Portland police department is not reopening its investigation in light of this development, so I don't see much here to get worked up about.

Just like your kids you teach Nick, I'm sure it does not take you long to see a pattern of bad behavior. Suh needs to realize that he needs to clean up his act. He just seems a bit out of touch with reality. If Bradford was suspended for stomping on a D linemen after getting sacked and the following week this report came out that at 1:30 am he crashed into a pole, we as Ram fan would be very concerned.

I see a pattern with Suh, not saying he can't correct it and i hope he does.

As far as witnesses I'm just reading what was reported if it changes I'm sure it will come out.

She also told the television station that she came forward to amend the police report after Suh promised to do it but never did.

According to the passenger, she also told Suh that she was hurt. "I just said, 'I'm hurt and I need to go to the hospital,'" she said in the interview.

But she said Suh's response to her was, "You're fine."

According to police, the women left the scene of the accident before they arrived to avoid attention and seek medical assistance.

A witness who called 9-1-1 to report the crash also spoke to KGW on Monday, saying that the driver "floored it" when a stoplight turned green in an attempt to "show off" with screeching tires.

The witness also told the television station that there were no cars in front of Suh's vehicle, and he did not see a taxicab either. He said he watched the vintage car hit a light pole, a fountain and then crash into a tree.

Suh told police he was trying to avoid a stopped taxicab when he lost control of the 1970 Chevrolet Coupe.

So far all his issues have been on field this is the first off field lets hope it;s his last.

[Nick]

Unless something drastic develops in this story, we're talking about a minor car accident that everyone walked away from and resulted in no charges or fines. I really doubt this would be a story if it wasn't Suh involved.

As for a pattern of bad behavior, even the image-conscious NFL distinguishes between on-field and off-field incidents in their personal conduct policy, so I don't think I'd agree this fits some kind of pattern. Maybe you could phrase it that way if you roped all bad behavior under one big umbrella, but I think there's too much nuance to do that.

Since you touched on my experience as a teacher, it would be like arguing that a kid who was part of a fight on the playground displayed a pattern of bad behavior by talking in class. That'd be two different things altogether, which I think is the case here.

Surely this is not good PR for Suh, but as I pointed out, there are some questionable holes in the information provided by the witness that make me question its legitimacy. It's always strikes me as a bit fishy when I read about someone leaving the scene of an accident having not reported anything concerning to police only to come up with stuff days later, especially when a celebrity is involved.

Regardless, I hope whatever is going on in Detroit gets straightened out, because I think last week's game supported the notion that this isn't just an issue with one player but an entire team, starting with the head coach.

[r8rh8rmike]

Suh better watch it, his bad behavior on the field may cost him some endorsement deals. And wait untill Chrysler finds out he drives like a teenage girl.

[Rambos]

Suh has just 31 tackles and three sacks on the season and we though Bradford is having a poor year.

[Nick]

Suh has just 31 tackles and three sacks on the season and we though Bradford is having a poor year.

How does this relate to him being a dirty player? Or has this just become a "criticize Suh" thread?

For what it's worse, I believe Suh's three sacks still put him among the Top Ten for pure 4-3 DTs this year in that category.

[r8rh8rmike]

How does this relate to him being a dirty player? Or has this just become a "criticize Suh" thread?

You did kind of open the door by getting involved in discussing the car accident issue, didn't you??

[Nick]

You did kind of open the door by getting involved in discussing the car accident issue, didn't you??

Well, that seemed to be phrased to further the discussion about Suh's character. Criticizing what he's accomplished on the field in terms of production doesn't really do that. But if that's the direction of the conversation, that's fine. I enjoy discussing Suh regardless.

[r8rh8rmike]

Well, that seemed to be phrased to further the discussion about Suh's character. Criticizing what he's accomplished on the field in terms of production doesn't really do that. But if that's the direction of the conversation, that's fine. I enjoy discussing Suh regardless.

I'd say you're being a good sport about the whole thing. I couldn't resist the "drives like a teen age girl" comment.

Did we have a thread on Suh's progress?