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Thread: Suh getting reputation

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Why, when he's in position to do otherwise, does he go for the head?
    Good question. And one that he better answer quickly. In this QB-friendly league, he will find it hard to cash checks from the suspension list.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    Isn't that the problem? If you're gunning for the guy's head oblivious to where the ball is, you're going to draw late hit penalties.
    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenWing View Post
    That's the other thing with Suh...why doesn't he grab someone around the chest or waist like you're supposed to? Why, when he's in position to do otherwise, does he go for the head?
    Seems like we're assuming a lot here.

    One, we have no idea if Suh is headhunting without regard for the ball. I really don't see that. I'd point out that one argument for a defender tackling high on a QB as Suh did would be to try and club the ball out of the quarterback's hand and create a turnover, which actually demonstrates a good awareness of the ball.

    Two, he actually does grab guys around the chest and waist to bring them down. It took me less than a minute to find video clips of him doing it. Those tackles simply don't get the kind of attention these hits do, though.

    It's almost a shame that Suh plays in the current era. Some of the all-time greats share the same kind of tenacity and intensity that he shows on the field, but he's playing for a league that wants to do away with that aspect of the game, for better or worse. He's really almost a throwback to the mentality of Deacon Jones, which as a Rams fan I love...



    I think Suh has a similar mindset - if you have the ball, he is going to do everything in his power to take you down and he's going to go as hard as he can in the process.
    Last edited by Nick; -08-19-2011 at 06:14 PM.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    It's almost a shame that Suh plays in the current era. Some of the all-time greats share the same kind of tenacity and intensity that he shows on the field, but he's playing for a league that wants to do away with that aspect of the game, for better or worse. He's really almost a throwback to the mentality of Deacon Jones, which as a Rams fan I love...
    Exactly the point I was making when I interjected Jones into the discussion, but let's face it, it's a different dynamic with players who are bigger, faster, stronger, and collisions that are more and more violent. Something had to give, and the tragic death of John Mackey, who played a lead with the head, battering ram style, puts even more pressure on Goodell to crack down.

    The bottom line is, if Suh wants to play the game like Deacon Jones, he needs to accept the fines, accept the suspensions, and accept the scrutiny on every tackle he makes. If not, he needs to adjust the way he plays. Again, that's the reality of the situation.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Seems like we're assuming a lot here.

    One, we have no idea if Suh is headhunting without regard for the ball. I really don't see that. I'd point out that one argument for a defender tackling high on a QB as Suh did would be to try and club the ball out of the quarterback's hand and create a turnover, which actually demonstrates a good awareness of the ball.

    Two, he actually does grab guys around the chest and waist to bring them down. It took me less than a minute to find video clips of him doing it. Those tackles simply don't get the kind of attention these hits do, though.

    It's almost a shame that Suh plays in the current era. Some of the all-time greats share the same kind of tenacity and intensity that he shows on the field, but he's playing for a league that wants to do away with that aspect of the game, for better or worse. He's really almost a throwback to the mentality of Deacon Jones, which as a Rams fan I love...



    I think Suh has a similar mindset - if you have the ball, he is going to do everything in his power to take you down and he's going to go as hard as he can in the process.
    Wow, Nick you could be my lawyer for this case because I have nothing else to say outside of what you just did, exactly! I rest my case your honor. I <3 me some Deacon! Lmao @ "You put all the offensive players in a one bag and I just take out a baseball bat and just beat on the bag"

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    The bottom line is, if Suh wants to play the game like Deacon Jones, he needs to accept the fines, accept the suspensions, and accept the scrutiny on every tackle he makes.
    Well, he's said he's not going to change the way he plays, so it sounds like he's going this route rather than toning it back. Which, were I a Lions fan, I think I'd appreciate, truthfully.

    To me, it's pretty simple. When I think of "dirty," I think of this...



    That's dirty. But Suh playing aggressively to the whistle? Not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZiaRam View Post
    Wow, Nick you could be my lawyer for this case because I have nothing else to say outside of what you just did, exactly! I rest my case your honor. I <3 me some Deacon! Lmao @ "You put all the offensive players in a one bag and I just take out a baseball bat and just beat on the bag"
    Yeah, that's a great quote. I crack up every time I hear that clip.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Well, he's said he's not going to change the way he plays, so it sounds like he's going this route rather than toning it back. Which, were I a Lions fan, I think I'd appreciate, truthfully.
    I can appreciate a man that won't compromise on what he feels he has to do, but if that's the case, he needs to stop whining about the fines, which are going to come with the territory.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    I can appreciate a man that won't compromise on what he feels he has to do, but if that's the case, he needs to stop whining about the fines, which are going to come with the territory.
    Really, a whiner? Because of what, a tweet? Consider the following...

    "A lot of us players growing up and coming in, we're getting faster, stronger and some guys just have incredible strength on that football field," he said. "So I feel like we put them in tough situations, and with the new rules and the different situation of safety -- which definitely should be something that should be applied on both sides of the ball -- we definitely put them in tough situations, so they have to make the right judgment.

    "I'm not going to fault them for making a call that they're erring on the safer side, because safety is important. It's important for myself, it's important for a quarterback, it's important for every last 22 players on the football field."
    Sounds to me like a guy trying to empathize with the tough job officials have to do rather than whine about it.
    Last edited by Nick; -08-20-2011 at 01:21 AM.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    One, we have no idea if Suh is headhunting without regard for the ball. I really don't see that. I'd point out that one argument for a defender tackling high on a QB as Suh did would be to try and club the ball out of the quarterback's hand and create a turnover, which actually demonstrates a good awareness of the ball.
    It would be if the ball wasn't already gone. The reason I think he was going for the head was because he didn't just hit the guy after the ball was gone. He spent nearly two more seconds on the guy, wrapping his arms around his head and wrenching him to the ground after the ball was out of the quarterback's hands. The entire illegal part of the hit came after the ball was gone, which is I think an important distinction between an aggressive defender and a nasty one.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    To me, it's pretty simple. When I think of "dirty," I think of this...
    And I would agree with your opinion more or less. However, your opinion plus my opinion come to a sum total of nothing. The only opinion that matters is Goodell's and if the fines are any indication, his opinion is that Suh's hits are "dirty".
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    It would be if the ball wasn't already gone. The reason I think he was going for the head was because he didn't just hit the guy after the ball was gone. He spent nearly two more seconds on the guy, wrapping his arms around his head and wrenching him to the ground after the ball was out of the quarterback's hands. The entire illegal part of the hit came after the ball was gone, which is I think an important distinction between an aggressive defender and a nasty one.
    Except we have no idea if he realized this during the play. When Suh engaged the quarterback, he still had the ball. It's entirely possible Suh did not see Dalton throw the ball as he was attempting to secure and bring him down.

    While I agree that defensive players need to make every reasonable effort to ensure that the opposing player has the ball when they're tackling or hitting them, that can be tough to do when your helmet is buried into their body as you're trying to bring them down.


    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    The only opinion that matters is Goodell's and if the fines are any indication, his opinion is that Suh's hits are "dirty".
    Is it, though? So the NFL feels that plays they fine are dirty in nature? I think that's a bit of a stretch, honestly, because if the fines are any indication, then the NFL has a lot of dirty hits and players in their ranks. I doubt that's something Goodell and the league want to suggest or propagate.

    I don't know that I'd assume a fine indicates a dirty play or player, as I think there's a pretty important distinction between illegal, dangerous, and dirty. All of which can be fined, but not all of which are the same. But maybe you've seen Goodell make comments to this topic that I've not seen, I don't know.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    I don't know that I'd assume a fine indicates a dirty play or player, as I think there's a pretty important distinction between illegal, dangerous, and dirty. All of which can be fined, but not all of which are the same.
    I gotta be honest, amigo, I don't see the distinction. They don't give out fines for clean hits.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Really, a whiner? Because of what, a tweet?
    Absolutely. A whiner. He's complaining about something he can't change, and a situation he brought on himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Sounds to me like a guy trying to empathize with the tough job officials have to do rather than whine about it.
    He's whining about the league policy, and how it's mandated. Empathizing with officials does not change the fact that his beef is with Roger Goodell.

    I'll tell you what, if he wins his appeal, I'll retract the whiner change. That said, I don't think there is any chance he wins his appeal.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    I gotta be honest, amigo, I don't see the distinction. They don't give out fines for clean hits.
    So you're telling me there's no distinction between the Haynesworth after-play intentional cleat to the face of a downed opponent and, say, an overly aggressive tackle or hit during a live play by someone trying to make a stop?

    I'm just not seeing that, sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    Absolutely. A whiner. He's complaining about something he can't change, and a situation he brought on himself.
    We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, then. I get what you're saying, but I think the approach Suh took of trying to see the officials' perspective and understanding the situation they're put in elevates the discussion above what I would consider a whine.

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    Absolutely. A whiner. He's complaining about something he can't change, and a situation he brought on himself.



    He's whining about the league policy, and how it's mandated. Empathizing with officials does not change the fact that his beef is with Roger Goodell.

    I'll tell you what, if he wins his appeal, I'll retract the whiner change. That said, I don't think there is any chance he wins his appeal.

    I dont see how he is bringing on himself? Football is a contact sport and you dont see him stepping on players faces with his cleats! Roger Godell is a lil to full of himself me thinks when it comes to this dirty hits bs. I can understand the helmet leading thing but anything else? Come on!

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    Re: Suh getting reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    So you're telling me there's no distinction between the Haynesworth after-play intentional cleat to the face of a downed opponent and, say, an overly aggressive tackle or hit during a live play by someone trying to make a stop?

    I'm just not seeing that, sorry.
    Of course there's a difference. In this case......the whistle. One was a play intended to injure a player before the whistle, the other one after the whistle.

    But that's not the question at hand. This conversation is about how Suh will have to find some balance. He can make bold statements about how he's "not going to change his game". But he won't have any game on the sidelines. And the NFL has already shown numerous times that "his game" results in ill consequences.

    And it's a shame really, because he is a tremendous player w/o all the cheapshots. He could still be the most intimidating lineman in the league and not attempt to cut short the livelihoods of opposing QBs.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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