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  1. #91
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    They STILL aren't better than the Rams.
    If everyone's completely healthy on both sides of the ball, the Rams are most likely better. But last year showed that it only takes an injury to Bulger to bring the Rams waaay down and make them very beatable. Right now, based on recent games, Rams and Card's are dead even. 1-1.

    I guess it's unrealistic to expect the Rams to sweep the Card's every, single year, but 2004 could be an indicator that the Rams are slipping and the Card's are improving.

    Actually, at the end of the year, I thought Eli played head and shoulders above Warner.
    I agree that Eli looked a LOT better than when he started but I don't know that you can really compare what he was doing vs. Warner. Warner played a softer group of defenses but that is somewhat overrated in scope. Yes, it's a factor but it wasn't like Warner was playing against the Rams 2004 defense and Eli was playing against the '85 Bears. Another thing is that the offense(scheme, line, etc.) was finally starting to play like a team by the end of the year, something it didn't do while Warner was in there. Speaking of the offense, Eli got to pick and choose which plays he was comfortable with, essentially dumbing down the offense and playing to his strengths. Warner was trying to make the system work. If Warner had complained about the offense I can't imagine the backlash from his detractors. Lastly, the last few games the Giants played were all meaningless and their sole purpose was to feature Eli.

    So, while he started to look like an actual NFL qb, I disagree that you can evaluate Warner's worth by saying Eli played better than Warner at the end of the year.

    Additionally, who's to say he's going to beat McCown out for the starting job?
    You obvioulsy don't hold much of an opinion of Warner at this point if you think he'll get beaten out by McCown. With Warner being the higher paid qb ($4 million to $1.5 million) and the competition being played out on level ground or even ground in favor of Warner, I don't think there's much chance of McCown being named the starter. He seems like a decent athlete but also has quite a ways to go with his reads, accuracy and decision making. 2005 appears to be a mentor/student situation for Warner and McCown. If Warner struggles or is average throughout the year, I'm sure they'll give McCown another shot so they don't have to draft another qb.


  2. #92
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Actually, at the end of the year, I thought Eli played head and shoulders above Warner.
    Just for the sake of comparison....

    In their final 3 games as starters...
    Manning (opponents avg. pass D ranking = 13th) - 1 win, 2 losses, 80 points, 53 / 87 for 527 yards, 5 TDs, 3 Ints.
    Warner (opponents avg. pass D ranking = 17th) - 1 win, 2 losses, 69 points, 50 / 80 for 532 yards, 2 TDs, 2 Ints.

    Not making a judgement, just puts some numbers in the discussion
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  3. #93
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    HUby what do you make of those stats? If you had too?

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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by viper3
    HUby what do you make of those stats? If you had too?
    Honestly, Viper, not a whole lot. The stats give a slight advantage to Manning, but I wouldn't read a ton into it. Manning is going to be an outstanding QB. He has the physical tools and a great head on his shoulders. He will be a good one. Warner was put into a system that wasn't meant for a veteran QB fresh from a Martz offense. You can't take a fighter jet pilot and put him in a Cessna and expect the same results. Coughlin's offense is perfect for Manning to cut his teeth on, but not for Warner to show his veteran abilities. On the other side of the coin, if they were both thrown into the Martz system, Warner would have drastically outperformed Manning (obviously my opinion, nothing factual).

    Bottomline, Warner will be in a system he knows and is comfortable with. He will do better in the desert than he did in the Big Apple. Manning, too will be fine. He's had a year under his belt and in a good starter kit of a system. It's the same system that Brunell got to cut his teeth on, and Manning will grow even faster, IMO.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Thanks HUbison, I don't think anyone could ask for anything better than that. I don't know how you do it, my friend, but you truly are the best at what you do here at clanram. Thank you again!!!

    Go Rams!!!!

  6. #96
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    But last year showed that it only takes an injury to Bulger to bring the Rams waaay down and make them very beatable.
    Just like it only takes an injury to Manning, to Vick, to Favre, to Brady, to Delhomme, to Green, to Roethlisberger, etc etc.

    This isn't something specific to the Rams. The reality of the situation is most teams would not function well if you removed their starting quarterback from the offense.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    With Warner being the higher paid qb ($4 million to $1.5 million) and the competition being played out on level ground or even ground in favor of Warner, I don't think there's much chance of McCown being named the starter.
    I agree - while Warner's agent may have prematurely said his client is the starter and Green denied it, I think the decision is already in the books.


    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Just for the sake of comparison....

    In their final 3 games as starters...
    Manning (opponents avg. pass D ranking = 13th) - 1 win, 2 losses, 80 points, 53 / 87 for 527 yards, 5 TDs, 3 Ints.
    Warner (opponents avg. pass D ranking = 17th) - 1 win, 2 losses, 69 points, 50 / 80 for 532 yards, 2 TDs, 2 Ints.

    Not making a judgement, just puts some numbers in the discussion
    Wow, very interesting.
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  7. #97
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Just like it only takes an injury to Manning, to Vick, to Favre, to Brady, to Delhomme, to Green, to Roethlisberger, etc etc.
    I understand your point but I disagree. Manning and Favre we can't really say since they never miss a game but when Brady went down, Bledsoe filled in nicely enough to put NE in the Super Bowl. Delhomme and Roethlisberger were fill-in's so I think that totally contradicts your point of view. Weinke/Peete were the starters and Delhomme came in and led Carolina to the SB. Maddox was the starter and Ben came in and led the Steelers to a 15-1 record.

    My point however, is that the Rams are somewhat unique in that their own backups can't really run the offense. That's how it is at this point. It didn't used to be that way with Warner/Green/Bulger coming off the bench and the Rams being successful. At this stage, I think the Rams are way too dependent on the qb position. Especially if Smoker can't pick up the system.

  8. #98
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    but when Brady went down, Bledsoe filled in nicely enough to put NE in the Super Bowl.
    Welcome to 2005, where Tom Brady's back-up is Rohan Davey. I thought we were living in the present, not four years ago...


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Delhomme and Roethlisberger were fill-in's so I think that totally contradicts your point of view.
    Not really. My point of view is to look at TODAY'S starting quarterbacks and the talent behind them. Roethlisberger was an injury fill-in when he came in, but I'm not talking about the past like you seemingly are, but right now's present. And I believe Maddox would not be able to lead the Steelers nearly as well. Also, you're incorrect about Weinke and Peete. Delhomme was the starter from Day One for Carolina in 2003. According to ESPN.com, Peete only attempted ten passes that season and played in one game, which he didn't start. Weinke hasn't thrown a pass in a meaningful game since 2002.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    My point however, is that the Rams are somewhat unique in that their own backups can't really run the offense.
    And again, I would contend that Rohan Davey, Craig Nall, Rodney Peete, Tommy Maddox, etc etc cannot run their teams nearly as well as the current starters can, therefore making this an issue that expands further than the St. Louis area.
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  9. #99
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    And again, I would contend that Rohan Davey, Craig Nall, Rodney Peete, Tommy Maddox, etc etc cannot run their teams nearly as well as the current starters can, therefore making this an issue that expands further than the St. Louis area.
    Who was it that talked about Peyton Manning not being as valuable to his team as Marc Bulger is since Jim Sorgi played so well? Delhomme didn't start 2003 as the starter, he came off the bench and ran the offense even better than Peete (Weinke and Peete were battling it out for the #1 spot in the preseason but Weinke got leapfrogged by Delhomme).

    I guess you only want to talk about 2004. If that's the case, the Rams are in deeper doo than I already stated. Smoker, who everyone seems to love, hasn't shown a thing as far as running the Rams offense. He looked terrible in preseason last year and couldn't even get into live action when Chandler and Martin were stinking things up. I would take Rohan Davey any day of the week over Smoker at this point and I'm SURE Bill Bellichick has him prepared to come in if necessary. He's actually played a little bit in NFLE so I put him ahead of Smoker. Especially considering the Patriots have a running game, good defense and good special teams to fall back on.

    How 'bout Tampa Bay? They had Johnson struggle and Simms AND Griese came off the bench and played well.

    Maddox is a helluva good backup at this stage. Granted, he's not a great starter but he's a decent starter who knows the Steelers system and would allow the Steelers to stay competitive and/or win games without missing too much of a beat. That's nothing like the Rams situation. Pretty much all the other teams in the league would indeed have a dropoff if their starter went down but I don't know of any teams that would be completely ineffective on offense like the Rams were in 2004. Maybe Smoker will be the next Warner/Bulger off the bench for the Rams but since he looked bad in preseason and didn't even get on the field in 2004 it's not likely at this point.

  10. #100
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Who was it that talked about Peyton Manning not being as valuable to his team as Marc Bulger is since Jim Sorgi played so well?
    I did, and I stand by that. But Sorgi's one game of relief work wouldn't make me very competent in his abilities to do that again. He's still young and he's still inexperienced. That said, the Colts know they have a back-up at least capable, which makes their situation less drastic than some of the other teams I've mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I guess you only want to talk about 2004.
    No, I want to talk about TODAY, which is why this is the second time I've resorted to putting it in ALL CAPS to emphasize the time period. I don't see the logic in responding to my point - "The reality of the situation is most teams would not function well if you removed their starting quarterback from the offense." - by citing references of previous seasons and not the current rosters of teams.

    If there's anyone who only wants to talk about seasons past, it's you, since you're referencing what Bledsoe did for NE and what Delhomme did early in 2003 rather than looking at examples on today's rosters.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    How 'bout Tampa Bay? They had Johnson struggle and Simms AND Griese came off the bench and played well.
    You're right, that's how it went down... in WEEK FIVE OF 2004! Mok, if I was debating last year's QB depth with you, you'd have a point and I'd agree with you. But look at TODAY. Johnson is gone, and Griese is the starter with an inexperienced Simms behind him. Again, TB wouldn't function as well if Griese went down.

    I understand that your point is perhaps the Rams' situation is the worst of all of these, but they're far from the only team that's rowing across the river in this specific boat, and citing Bledsoe from four years ago, Delhomme two years ago, and Griese last season doesn't mean jack about their situation RIGHT NOW.

    Go team by team and I bet you'll find more teams that are in a position like we are, with question marks and uncertainty on the bench, than teams like Pittsburgh where Maddox is a satisfactory back-up in times of need.
    Last edited by Nick; -03-13-2005 at 05:36 PM.
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  11. #101
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by viper3
    Thanks HUbison, I don't think anyone could ask for anything better than that. I don't know how you do it, my friend, but you truly are the best at what you do here at clanram. Thank you again!!!

    Go Rams!!!!
    Well thank you Viper, I appreciate that.
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  12. #102
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Delhomme didn't start 2003 as the starter, he came off the bench and ran the offense even better than Peete (Weinke and Peete were battling it out for the #1 spot in the preseason but Weinke got leapfrogged by Delhomme).
    Oh and Mok, you're right on this. I was wrong. Looking at the colum for the wrong season when investigating starts. So apoligies on that.
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  13. #103
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Maybe Smoker will be the next Warner/Bulger off the bench for the Rams but since he looked bad in preseason and didn't even get on the field in 2004 it's not likely at this point.
    In defense of Smoker, any rookie is going to look bad in preseason. If he didn't, I would criticize him for making the playbook too easy. And honestly, I think Martz had no intention of letting Smoker see the field last year. I believe (nothing but my opinion here) that Martz wanted Smoker to do nothing but learn the playbook and observe Bulger run the offense. If need be we'll see him this year and he'll be fine.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    I hope he does well. I hope he puts up career numbers in 14 of his games. And as long as the Cards finish behind the Rams, I could care less how well his team does.
    i couldnt agree with hubison more. i hope that kurt does great in arizona just as long as he doesnt play against us.

  15. #105
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    Re: Warner signs with Arizona

    Hopefully the offseason changes will improve some of the weaknesses to the defense, special teams and offensive line for 2005. I am hoping that Bulger does not get injured. I really don't think a second string QB will fair well with this setup.

    Roethlisberger was amazing. It is not often that a rookie QB can come in and perform that well. It really helps to have a good defense so that there is less pressure on the QB. The Steelers like to keep the score low and use their defense.
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