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  1. #16
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by fliptalianstallion View Post
    What does their bench look like again?
    Antawn Jamison, Jodie Meeks, and Jordan Hill are all good contributors off the bench.


  2. #17
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawr View Post
    Didn't the Celtics win 66 games and the championship their first season with the Big 3?
    Yes, and that was unusual. What made that team work is that you didn't have a guy like Kobe who insists on being a volume shooter. Also, that team was a lot younger overall than this Lakers team.

    I don't think you can combat that with a team who choked away a championship to a worse team the first year and then won it all their second year. Most of the Lakers team is still in tact, so in theory it would take even less time for them to adjust.
    Didn't that "worse team" blow out a Lakers team that had Kobe, Artest and Paul on it (not to mention Bynum)?

    Westbrook and Durant aren't a good combination. Wade and Lebron aren't a good combination.
    Yeah, and neither are macaroni and cheese or Lennon and McCartney.

    Kobe has always been heavily guarded. Nash will likely get him more open looks than he's ever had in his career.
    No he won't, because he won't have the ball. Kobe will continue to demand the ball on every possession, making Nash a spot up shooter.

    Meeks will light it up if left open. Jamison's three will have to be respected. Goudelock and Duhon both shot around 40% from three last year. The only question with them is if they will be able to do well enough in other areas to be able to get on the court.
    Yeah, I'm sure the Heat and Thunder are kept up at night worrying about Meeks, Goudelock and Duhon.

    Are you freakin' kidding me? Those guys wouldn't even make the Heat's rotation.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -08-20-2012 at 03:12 PM.

  3. #18
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    First, I am a Lakers fan, so maybe I have a little bias. But I keep hearing you say how Kobe is (my words) a ball hog and that will hurt the team. I do have to point out that just a week or so ago, we saw the U.S. Men's Olympic Basketball team win gold with Kobe playing pretty much a supporting role. Sure, there was a game where he got hot and the team benefited from him doing so, so they set him up. He has been dealing the ball around a lot more over the past several seasons.

    Now, if it's 10 seconds left in the fourth quarter and the Lakers are down by 1 point, who do you think wants the ball? Damn right, Kobe does, just like I want my superstar or best player to do. I'll take that every time over a star player that is hesitant or scared to take the shot.
    This space for rent...

  4. #19
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Yes, and that was unusual. What made that team work is that you didn't have a guy like Kobe who insists on being a volume shooter. Also, that team was a lot younger overall than this Lakers team.
    If Kobe is a "volume shooter," then what do you call Paul Pierce?

    Didn't that "worse team" blow out a Lakers team that had Kobe, Artest and Paul on it (not to mention Bynum)?
    And? The Heat were still better than the Mavs. I don't see how that was relevant.

    Yeah, and neither are macaroni and cheese or Lennon and McCartney.
    I think you missed the point.

    No he won't, because he won't have the ball. Kobe will continue to demand the ball on every possession, making Nash a spot up shooter.
    You're basing this off of what? Kobe talked to Nash, and they decided it would work. Nash and Kobe know basketball far better than you do, so I think they knew the possible downfalls of playing together. In fact, that's the reason Nash called. Kobe convinced Nash it would work. You think you know more than Nash? You think Kobe doesn't want to win? I guess Kobe's five rings and two gold medals blinded me to the fact that he only cares about himself and doesn't care about the team.

    Yeah, I'm sure the Heat and Thunder are kept up at night worrying about Meeks, Goudelock and Duhon.
    If you watched the Lakers play the Thunder, then you would probably know that they are concerned about the new shooters LA brought in. They're going to have to attack LA with a whole new defense. The defense that doubled Kobe all game and packed it in in the post isn't going to work this year. Those looks that Sessions and MWP got all game are going to go to actual shooters. It won't work this year.

    And are you really going to pick the least intimidating players I mentioned and claim they're not intimidating? All I said was that they were shooters. I even specifically said that I didn't know if they would even be able to see much time this year (with the exception of Meeks). You want to talk about not intimidating, though? How about Joel Anthony and Udonis Haslem? Those guys actually get starts on the Heat! They would literally be #5 and #6 on the Lakers' roster as far as bigs go. And yes, that means that a starter on the Heat roster could potentially not even make the team for LA.

  5. #20
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawr View Post
    If Kobe is a "volume shooter," then what do you call Paul Pierce?
    Pierce has averaged 16.1 shots per game for his career. Kobe has averaged 19.6.

    And? The Heat were still better than the Mavs. I don't see how that was relevant.
    At that time, the Mavs were playing better, so they deserved to win.

    Kobe talked to Nash, and they decided it would work. Nash and Kobe know basketball far better than you do, so I think they knew the possible downfalls of playing together.
    It has nothign to do with basketball knowledge. It has to do with ego. Why do you think that Kobe has never played with a PG who's averaged 7+ assists per game? Its because Kobe can't/won't defer to a point guard.

    I guess Kobe's five rings and two gold medals blinded me to the fact that he only cares about himself and doesn't care about the team.
    Kobe won his first three rings on Shaq's back. He then blew up the team because he wanted to be "the man." And, I have news for you - Howard is no Shaq.

    If you watched the Lakers play the Thunder, then you would probably know that they are concerned about the new shooters LA brought in. They're going to have to attack LA with a whole new defense. The defense that doubled Kobe all game and packed it in in the post isn't going to work this year. Those looks that Sessions and MWP got all game are going to go to actual shooters. It won't work this year.
    I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone is going to worry about the Lakers' 3P shooters. They certainly don't hold a candle to Mario Chalmers, Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Rashard Lewis and James Jones.

    And are you really going to pick the least intimidating players I mentioned and claim they're not intimidating? All I said was that they were shooters. I even specifically said that I didn't know if they would even be able to see much time this year (with the exception of Meeks). You want to talk about not intimidating, though? How about Joel Anthony and Udonis Haslem? Those guys actually get starts on the Heat! They would literally be #5 and #6 on the Lakers' roster as far as bigs go. And yes, that means that a starter on the Heat roster could potentially not even make the team for LA.
    Haslem and Anthony didn't start in the Finals (I guess you missed that). And your statement that they'd be the #5 and #6 big men on the Lakers is ridiculous.

  6. #21
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    I think Bryant is a jerk, and is the main reason I am no longer a Lakers fan, but there is no doubt in my mind that he wants to win championships above all else. Does he have a big ego? Yes. Does he want the ball? Yes. Does he want the best players around him to win those championships? Yes.

    Who knows what will happen with the Lakers, but it's amazing what solid players do when they get in a situation where they have a chance to win that elusive NBA title. I just don't think you add a player with the abilitiies and court smarts of Nash, or the dominating presence in the paint of Howard, and get nothing out of it. If Kobe plays to satisfy his own needs, there may be problems, but if he works with the star power around him (which I think he will), look out.

  7. #22
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    I think they'll win a lot of games, and probably will make the conference finals, but that's it.

    I'm predicting Thunder vs. Heat II.

  8. #23
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Pierce has averaged 16.1 shots per game for his career. Kobe has averaged 19.6.
    Somewhere between 16 and 19 shots per game is the magical number to become a volume shooter? It's really not a major difference. Kobe also has a higher percentage.

    At that time, the Mavs were playing better, so they deserved to win.
    I desperately wanted the Heat to lose, and I still thought they were the better team. I guess it's just an opinion. They came together quick enough to win a championship, regardless. They just couldn't finish it.

    It has nothign to do with basketball knowledge. It has to do with ego. Why do you think that Kobe has never played with a PG who's averaged 7+ assists per game? Its because Kobe can't/won't defer to a point guard.
    No, it's because Phil Jackson ran the triangle. Jackson is gone, and so is the triangle. Also, did you really expect somebody like Derek Fisher to dish out 7 assists a game even if they ran a different offense or had different players?

    Kobe won his first three rings on Shaq's back. He then blew up the team because he wanted to be "the man." And, I have news for you - Howard is no Shaq.
    Three rings on Shaq's back? Sounds like he played pretty well without being the star player, no? Even if you took away those three rings (which would be ridiculous), he still has twice as many as Lebron. Who did he win those on the back of? Pau? He's still in LA.

    I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone is going to worry about the Lakers' 3P shooters. They certainly don't hold a candle to Mario Chalmers, Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Rashard Lewis and James Jones.
    If you leave the guys the Lakers have wide open, then they're going to knock down shots.

    Haslem and Anthony didn't start in the Finals (I guess you missed that). And your statement that they'd be the #5 and #6 big men on the Lakers is ridiculous.
    Haslem didn't start in the finals? I guess you missed game 1. And I wasn't referring to just the finals. Who are they gonna beat out? Pau or Howard? That's laughable. Jamison? No. Hill? Those three would go at it. I'd take Hill, but I'm sure you'd take one of your guys. Haslem or Anthony would get cut.

  9. #24
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    You're delusional. Haslem is a better player than Hill, and he's a much better defender than Jamison. Truth is, if the Lakers offered Artest for Haslem at this point, I'd tell them no thanks.

    As for Anthony, he's a role player. He can block shots and defend. He has no offensive game. He also barely played in the Finals, so I don't know why he's even relevant to this discussion.

    Your overall view is consistent with a fantasy league mentality. In the real world, it takes time for a team to come together. That's why Miami didn't win it all in 2011. And that's why the Lakers won't even make the Finals in 2013.

    And with that, I'll return to our regularly scheduled football talk.

  10. #25
    Rawr is offline Registered User
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    You're delusional. Haslem is a better player than Hill, and he's a much better defender than Jamison.
    Haslem is a similar player to Hill. They're physical, hustle, and get rebounds without much offensive game. It's really 4a and 4b. Not much of a difference, and very little reason to argue. He's fighting for the 4th spot, though. That's not impressive. Yes, Haslem is a better defender than Jamison, but he's still a worse player.

    Truth is, if the Lakers offered Artest for Haslem at this point, I'd tell them no thanks.
    How did he come into the discussion? We were talking about where Haslem and Anthony would fit in vs. Howard, Pau, Jamison, and Hill. While we're at it, though, I'd take Artest in the 4 spot over Haslem as well. He actually looked pretty good in it at times last year. I think we'd have seen him get a lot of action there this year if the Lakers had signed Grant Hill instead of Jordan Hill. I don't think anybody could justify giving Ebanks minutes over Jordan Hill, though.

    As for Anthony, he's a role player. He can block shots and defend. He has no offensive game. He also barely played in the Finals, so I don't know why he's even relevant to this discussion.
    He's relevant because he started 51 games last year (even with the lockout shortened season). Why is that hard to understand?

    Your overall view is consistent with a fantasy league mentality. In the real world, it takes time for a team to come together. That's why Miami didn't win it all in 2011. And that's why the Lakers won't even make the Finals in 2013.
    Are you going to continue to ignore facts? There has only been two times in recent history when something like this happened. Once was when the Celtics did it, and they won 66 regular season games and the championship. The other time was with the Heat. The Heat didn't come together right away (mainly because Lebron and Wade don't naturally compliment each other well), but they had by the end of the season. They won a conference championship in their first year together and took a 2-1 lead before choking it away. The Lakers shouldn't need as long to come together anyway, because they already had several of their pieces in place (unlike the Celtics or Heat).

    As for "fantasy league mentality," I can show you what that looks like...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    C: D.Jordan vs. D.Howard (edge: Lakers - but not a horrible matchup)
    PF: B.Griffin vs. P.Gasol (edge: Clippers - apart from foul shooting)
    SF: C.Butler vs. R.Artest (edge: Clippers - if Butler can stay healthy)
    SG: J.Crawford vs. K.Bryant (edge: Lakers - but Kobe won't shut down Crawford)
    PG: C.Paul vs. S.Nash (edge: Clippers - big edge, at this point).

    Hmmm.....
    Basketball isn't just a bunch of one on one matchups. Fantasy basketball is, though. (Also, your analysis is pretty poor regardless...Howard and Bryant aren't big edges over Jordan and Crawford, but Paul over Nash is? Wow.)

  11. #26
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawr View Post
    He's relevant because he started 51 games last year (even with the lockout shortened season). Why is that hard to understand?
    Anthony, despite starting, averaged only 21 minutes per game during the regular season, 19 minutes per game in the playoffs, and 2 minutes per game in the Finals.

    What part of that do YOU not understand?

    Are you going to continue to ignore facts? There has only been two times in recent history when something like this happened. Once was when the Celtics did it, and they won 66 regular season games and the championship.
    Average age of starters on that Celtics team: 27.0
    Average age of starters on 2012 Lakers team: 32.6

    Not the same thing by a long shot.

    This Lakers team is more like the Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton team that was exposed in the Finals against a Detroit team that arguably didn't have a HOF in their entire lineup.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -08-22-2012 at 05:00 PM.

  12. #27
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Anthony, despite starting, averaged only 21 minutes per game during the regular season, 19 minutes per game in the playoffs, and 2 minutes per game in the Finals.

    What part of that do YOU not understand?
    They went with a unique lineup for the finals. You think they'll stick with that? I guess it would be interesting to see how it plays out.

    This Lakers team is more like the Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton team that was exposed in the Finals against a Detroit team that arguably didn't have a HOF in their entire lineup.
    This is another decent comparison. It has several apparent weaknesses, but it's pretty respectable. So far, of the three best comparisons, all three teams went to the NBA Finals their first year together. Doesn't sound too bad.

    If Karl Malone was healthy and Kobe hadn't been in the middle of a court case that really wore him down over the course of the season, the Lakers would have won the championship that year. I can live with that.

    And for the record, that team, like the Celtics, played well together from day 1.
    Last edited by Rawr; -08-22-2012 at 06:46 PM.

  13. #28
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    "Chris Bosh surprisingly went on record saying that the Lakers have the best team "on paper" right now in the NBA.
    Bosh caught his South Florida Sun-Sentinel interviewer off guard by saying, "The Lakers, I think, right now, I mean on paper, they probably have the best team in the West and probably the league right now." He then tried to qualify the statement a little by saying, "...but it's a lot, it's a long season. And the best team always isn't the one who starts out the season as the best team." Bosh may be trying to take some attention off of his Heat, who have been squarely in the pressure-cooker ever since the "Superfriends" joined forces two seasons ago, but it's still surprising to hear Bosh call another team better than his, even if it's only "on paper.""
    Si vous croyez en vous, que vous avez de la fierté, et que vous ne lâchez jamais, vous serez un gagnant.
    Le prix de la victoire est chère, mais la récompense en vaut la peine.

  14. #29
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    That's what you call a backhanded compliment.

  15. #30
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    Re: The New Lakers, and 10 Reasons they won't beat the Heat.

    Well hopefully that Dwight's fans in Orlando have no hard feelings. As this was a business decision.
    Happy Thanksgiving 2014!

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