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  1. #16
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    The exact same place as their ILB centerpiece..........not currently on the roster. But they must decide which LB they want, the consensus top ranked LB in the draft, or the 4-3 End who most have ranked as the #2 ranked LB who will only do one thing in this defense.
    Yes, he does the one thing that I would wager most teams feel is one of the most important and impactful aspects of defensive football, and the one thing the Chiefs were absolutely horrible at last season - rushing the passer.

    It's all going to come down to how the Chiefs view a guy like Orakpo. If they feel he's one of the top five players in this class and is capable of making the transition to a stand-up pass rushing linebacker, he very well could be the pick.

    If they want someone who will likely play inside in that alignment but who ranks by many as this draft's best defensive player, they'll take Curry, and then they'll have to wait until the third round at the earliest to try and find someone for the outside.

    Neither of these guys alone are going to suddenly reinvent this defense, but my point is simply that Orakpo is very much in the discussion. The Chiefs don't have much of anything in terms of quality pass rushing OLBs for this defensive scheme, whereas I look at that roster and I see some possibilities at ILB.

    You looked at their roster and concluded the opposite, so we'll have to agree to disagree about what their current personnel suggests the bigger hole may be. Obviously I agree that Curry is the favorite for that spot, as he's the guy I had projected to KC in my mock. But I don't think it's as signed, sealed, and delivered as you seem to feel it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BarronWade View Post
    I dont get the Sanchez pick.

    If the Lions said it is down to 4 (stafford, Monroe, SMith, CUrry) and the Media thinks its down to 2 (Stafford, Smith) then how is the pick Sanchez.
    Because that's who RamsFanSam selected?

    I'm not sure the Lions as an organization ever said who specifically it was down to, but even if they did, you'd have to be willing to believe what an NFL team is telling you about their intentions, which can be hit or miss.

    Regardless, I thought RFS did a pretty good job explaining in the Selections thread why he went the way he did. Maybe you disagree, but the idea behind this mock was for a number of people to come together and collaborate on one mock to see how things went. Obviously it's already turned out quite different from a number of other mocks. I would think that's one thing that would make it interesting to follow.

    By the way, Scout.com's Chris Steuber has had Sanchez going first overall to Detroit since January, so it's not as if RFS is taking this leap of faith alone here.


  2. #17
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BarronWade View Post
    I dont get the Sanchez pick.

    If the Lions said it is down to 4 (stafford, Monroe, SMith, CUrry) and the Media thinks its down to 2 (Stafford, Smith) then how is the pick Sanchez.
    I had to think about the weaknesses of Detroit. Of course, they like Stafford, but I still believe that Sanchez gives them a slight edge when it comes to the QB being mobile. They don't need someone who will stand around and wait to get sacked - they need someone who will take off and make a play on the run. I think Sanchez is a better fit. Besides, have you ever believed everything the media tells you? And what about the Lions? Didn't they promise to win at least ONE game last year?

    See, just because Detroit and the media say it's narrowed down, you can't believe a word of it.

  3. #18
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Yes, he does the one thing that I would wager most teams feel is one of the most important and impactful aspects of defensive football, and the one thing the Chiefs were absolutely horrible at last season - rushing the passer.
    Important? Yes.
    More important than a solid interior? I don't think so.

    But ultimately, we're going to disagree on this one, but I think as prospects Curry is a better prospect at LB than Orakpo is at DE. Factor in the switch from DE to OLB, and I don't even think it's close. Just my opinion. However, on the dc prospects report, a mock data base kept by some Redskins fans (linked at Scott Wright's site), in a pool of 36 mocks published since Friday, Curry was the Chiefs' choice in 29 of them. Orakpo, 2. Not that this is the decisive voice, but I can't say that I stand alone in my view.

    By the way, in that same database, the Rams pick is Jason Smith (19), Monroe (14), Stafford (2), and Andre Smith (1). Not a single Curry.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #19
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Important? Yes.
    More important than a solid interior? I don't think so.
    We can agree to disagree here. A solid interior is important, sure. But ultimately I think NFL teams put a much higher emphasis on the pass rush.

    That's one of the reasons, IMO, we've seen more defensive ends taken in the top three picks of the last ten years than we have interior defensive players (LB, DT).

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    But ultimately, we're going to disagree on this one, but I think as prospects Curry is a better prospect at LB than Orakpo is at DE.
    I agree. My point hasn't been that Orakpo is the better player at that spot, but rather that the Chiefs may view a 3-4 OLB as more important to their scheme.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Not that this is the decisive voice, but I can't say that I stand alone in my view.
    ...no one said you did?

    Heck, Curry is the Chiefs' pick in my mock as well. But you're the one who said, "I don't see any way that Orakpo is selected over Curry." All I'm saying is I can definitely see a way.
    Last edited by Nick; -03-31-2009 at 11:07 PM.

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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    So, around here anyway, looks like Stafford will now be uttered in similar sentences as Quinn and Rodgers.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #21
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    We can agree to disagree here.
    I suppose so, Nick. To me, that is TO ME, this is a simple question of......where does a 3-4 team want to begin their building process? Patrick Willis? Or Vernon Gholston?

    I'd take a Willis over a Gholston. But that's just me.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  7. #22
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Difference between Gholston and Orakpo is this, Gholston was accused of taking plays off in college. Never, Never, Never has Orakpo been accused of that.

  8. #23
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    I suppose so, Nick. To me, that is TO ME, this is a simple question of......where does a 3-4 team want to begin their building process? Patrick Willis? Or Vernon Gholston?

    I'd take a Willis over a Gholston. But that's just me.
    Well, Gholston came off the board @ six in 2008 before any ILB. Willis came off the board @ 11 in 2007, after two defensive ends were already selected. So again, I think an argument about positional value perhaps putting the pass rusher ahead of the ILB is a legit one, and that's really the only point I've been bringing up when talking about Orakpo to the Chiefs here.

    Again, I'm not saying that, if I was a GM of a random team, I'd take Orakpo over Curry. What I am saying though is I can at least see a way in which the outside pass rusher goes before the inside linebacker. Because, to me, NFL teams value the former much more than the latter. And it's that positional value that could push an Orakpo up over a Curry.

    Anyways, moving onto the new pick, I think Crabtree to the ***** is an excellent selection. Right now for the *****, given who is on the board, it comes down to four guys - QB Stafford, WR Crabtree, or OTs Oher and Smith.

    You could make the case that the ***** need a franchise QB, but I think they feel pretty comfortable for the time being with Shaun Hill, and they still have Alex Smith signed to a restructured contract. They can afford to pass on a QB, even if it's Stafford. Offensive tackle becomes less of a need since they just signed Marvel Smith to play on the right side. Crabtree is arguably the best player available, and the ***** could certainly use a playmaking WR especially if Isaac Bruce doesn't return.

    Great pick, tx! Now the question remains... where will Stafford end up? Maybe in Denver, with news of the Broncos trying to trade Cutler? Hmmm...

  9. #24
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Well, Gholston came off the board @ six in 2008 before any ILB. Willis came off the board @ 11 in 2007, after two defensive ends were already selected. So again, I think an argument about positional value perhaps putting the pass rusher ahead of the ILB is a legit one, and that's really the only point I've been bringing up when talking about Orakpo to the Chiefs here.

    Again, I'm not saying that, if I was a GM of a random team, I'd take Orakpo over Curry. What I am saying though is I can at least see a way in which the outside pass rusher goes before the inside linebacker. Because, to me, NFL teams value the former much more than the latter. And it's that positional value that could push an Orakpo up over a Curry.

    Anyways, moving onto the new pick, I think Crabtree to the ***** is an excellent selection. Right now for the *****, given who is on the board, it comes down to four guys - QB Stafford, WR Crabtree, or OTs Oher and Smith.

    You could make the case that the ***** need a franchise QB, but I think they feel pretty comfortable for the time being with Shaun Hill, and they still have Alex Smith signed to a restructured contract. They can afford to pass on a QB, even if it's Stafford. Offensive tackle becomes less of a need since they just signed Marvel Smith to play on the right side. Crabtree is arguably the best player available, and the ***** could certainly use a playmaking WR especially if Isaac Bruce doesn't return.

    Great pick, tx! Now the question remains... where will Stafford end up? Maybe in Denver, with news of the Broncos trying to trade Cutler? Hmmm...
    The Broncos first pick is my greedy little hands. One never knows what the crystal ball will say.

  10. #25
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Well, Gholston came off the board @ six in 2008 before any ILB. Willis came off the board @ 11 in 2007
    And if they were both in this year's draft, which would come off first?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  11. #26
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Now the question remains... where will Stafford end up? Maybe in Denver, with news of the Broncos trying to trade Cutler? Hmmm...

    Hmm. Interesting. That's the most likely choice IMO, the only other team I can see picking him would be the Bills.


    If Cutler is indeed traded, then Stafford would make the most sense to them.

  12. #27
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    And if they were both in this year's draft, which would come off first?
    Honestly I still think Gholston. That's going to sound crazy because of what both of them have done since being drafted, but post-draft performance doesn't get to be in the discussion if we're talking about them when they were still prospects.

    Remember, Gholston was at least rumored to be in the conversation for the first overall pick last year for Miami. He was definitely mentioned as a possibility for our second overall pick as well. After the combine and his pro day, Willis solidified himself as the top linebacker in the 2007 class but was never in the discussion that high. There was talk that a team like Denver could trade ahead of San Fran to take him if they wanted him, but that never happened.

    If they were both available in this class, I think Gholston could be a possibility for a team like KC @ 3, Cleveland @ 5, and Green Bay @ 9. I think as was the case in 2007, Willis would be hard pressed to crack the top ten again. I don't see him going in the top eight, and Green Bay is pretty set at ILB with Hawk and Barnett. Ironically, San Fran or Denver @ 12 could be destinations for Willis if he were in this year's draft.

  13. #28
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Honestly I still think Gholston. That's going to sound crazy because of what both of them have done since being drafted, but post-draft performance doesn't get to be in the discussion if we're talking about them when they were still prospects.
    But post-draft performance was the whole purpose of the comparison. Projections still, but TO ME, that's where I see these two prospects heading. Curry (like Willis) becoming an immediate factor and quickly rising to the top of the MLB ranks. Orakpo (like Gholston) having to suffer through learning the shift from DE to OLB, and relying on "potential" to rule the day.

    Now, if you want to hear crazy, here's one for you. IMO, the gap between Curry and Orakpo decreases in a 4-3 scheme contrasted with a 3-4 team. That is to say, I could see the Rams (4-3) taking Orakpo over Curry more than the Chiefs (3-4) taking Orakpo over Curry.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  14. #29
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    But post-draft performance was the whole purpose of the comparison.
    But again, it has to be eliminated from any discussion about where you'd take a prospect in the draft, and that's the question you asked.

    It's the same reason certain questions - like "Would you still not draft Ray Lewis in the top 20?" - are unanswerable, because obviously the question is factoring in something NFL teams can't at the time of the draft, and that's knowledge of what the player did after the draft in the NFL.

    Regardless of what we know about them in the NFL now, Gholston still comes off the board first if both are available in the same class, IMO. Willis as a prospect had the potential to be an immediate factor and still went outside the top ten. Gholston was drafted largely on potential by a team knowing there would be a transition and still went sixth overall. I don't see that suddenly changing if both were in the same class, especially this year when there's a demand in the top ten for 3-4 pass rushers.

    Again, I think it speaks to the positional importance and value NFL teams place on pass rushers, and is why Orakpo definitely has a chance of being KC's pick, even though I would agree Curry is the favorite.

    I don't know what else to add at this point. I think tx made a pick that seems to go against conventional wisdom regarding the Chiefs' pick, but I thought he defended it well and I think there's certainly a possibility it could happen. I think we risk derailing the thread by continuing to hammer this one out, so I'm going to move on.
    Last edited by Nick; -04-01-2009 at 01:40 PM.

  15. #30
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    Re: 2009 ClanRam Mod Mock Draft - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    But again, it has to be eliminated from any discussion about where you'd take a prospect in the draft, and that's the question you asked.
    Then let's just draw names out of a hat. If projections of a prospect are to be removed, then there's no point in scouting any prospects. Let's just sort them out alphabetically and save these teams tons of money on scouting.

    But, of course, that's not the way it works. I see Curry most likely projecting to be as Willis is (not what Willis was expected to be......which is less than Willis is) and Orakpo with a large chance of turning out as Gholston is (not what Gholston was expected to be....which is more than Gholston is)
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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