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Thread: After week 11...

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    After week 11...

    I'm, starting to really think Givens can be as good or better then any FA receiver we can get. Considering that he did not work too much with Bradford during preseason. Also keep in mind he did not start getting much playing time until week four and he missed a game. Lets look at his numbers.

    Givens 22 catches 467 yards, 3 TD

    Here are Holt's rookie numbers.

    Holt 53 catches 788 yards, 6 TD

    I would think it's possible for Givens in the next five games to come close to matching Holts rookie campaign.


    Givens has proven he is a legit deep threat. He is starting to show he can catch the screens and produce YAC. He made nice third down grab late Sunday where he was running a crossing route getting separation made it an easy pitch and catch.

    Today I see him as our number one. He is on the field a lot and will now be targeted over Gibson the rest of the way IMO.

    Givens with a year under his belt and the connection he and Bradford have going next year he will have over a 1000 yards and plus 7 TD. That being said he can be a legit number next year.

    I have no problem passing on a FA receivers and spending that money on the O line. Get a vet to improve pass protection and run blocking. I also have changed my opinion on drafting another receiver. Go ahead and get another young playmaker, Keenan Allen, California, DeAndre Hopkins Clemson or a Justin Hunter, Tennessee.

    I think we can be more then productive with Givens, Amendola, Quick and any of those draft picks. also if Quick does not produce we will have covered our bases with another young gun to develop.

    So here it is after week 11.
    Last edited by Rambos; -11-27-2012 at 12:56 PM.


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    Re: After week 11...

    I'm not sure I'm ready to declare him our number 1, but he's certainly working his way more and more into our offense. I think he's progressed past the occasional deep threat to a solid, more frequent contributor. There's no reason he won't keep progressing through the rest of this season and into next year, but I can't say I'd be comfortable if he were our number 1 option in 2013-2014.

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    Re: After week 11...

    I agree we can be productive but this isn't the 90's. You need at least 3 good receivers and the more the better.

    How much better would our receiving corps look if we had

    1. Greg Jenning
    2. Chris Givens
    3. Danny Amendola
    4. Brian Quick
    5. Austin Pettis

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    Re: After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants232003 View Post
    I agree we can be productive but this isn't the 90's. You need at least 3 good receivers and the more the better.

    How much better would our receiving corps look if we had

    1. Greg Jenning
    2. Chris Givens
    3. Danny Amendola
    4. Brian Quick
    5. Austin Pettis


    1. Chris Givens
    2. Danny Amendola
    3. Terrance William or who ever the FO prefers.
    4. Brian Quick
    5. Austin Pettis or Gibson

    We still have Quick he should do a lot more next year and we can draft another rookie stud receiver. We will have more then three.

    Your right it is not the 90 so lets add another TE into the mix.

    1. L.Kendricks
    2. T.Eifert

    Adding another established offensive line will have a huge upside. No way we can sign DA, Receiver
    and upgrade the O line.


    shower beers
    I'm not sure I'm ready to declare him our number 1
    Yeah I hear you, but do you think that any other FA will be that much more productive next year?

    Dwayne Bowe
    This year 667 TD 3
    Mike Wallace 572 TD 6

    Jennings just has missed too much time to look at his numbers. My point is Givens will produce compatible numbers next year. We can spend the money in another area of need.

    Lets see how Givens finishes.
    Last edited by Rambos; -11-27-2012 at 03:29 PM.

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    Re: After week 11...

    Bowe and Wallace have been crippled by poor QB play. The Chiefs may have the worst QB tandem in the league(along with ARZ) and Wallace was averaging 60 yards a game with Ben(about a 1,000 yard season pace).

    We have draft picks so I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to upgrade TE, WR and OL.

    Sign one of Jennings, Bowe, and Wallace. Draft a RT/LT and a TE. Wala problem solved. I don't see any reason why we have to sign a linemen for big money when linemen come in and play well all the time. I'd much rather have Jake Matthews at 2 million than Albert or Long at 7-9 million.

    Especially since it takes a long time for most receivers to contribute. There just is no way I'm comfortable with Givens and Amendola as our #1 and #2. We'll be back to having Gibson play regularly once Danny gets hurt(Which he always does).
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    Re: After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    1. Chris Givens
    2. Danny Amendola
    3. Terrance William or who ever the FO prefers.
    4. Brian Quick
    5. Austin Pettis or Gibson

    We still have Quick he should do a lot more next year and we can draft another rookie stud receiver. We will have more then three.

    Your right it is not the 90 so lets add another TE into the mix.

    1. L.Kendricks
    2. T.Eifert

    Adding another established offensive line will have a huge upside. No way we can sign DA, Receiver and upgrade the O line.

    Yeah I hear you, but do you think that any other FA will be that much more productive next year?

    Dwayne Bowe
    This year 667 TD 3
    Mike Wallace 572 TD 6

    Jennings just has missed too much time to look at his numbers. My point is Givens will produce compatible numbers next year. We can spend the money in another area of need.

    Lets see how Givens finishes.
    You make a good argument Rambos, i give you that. Almost swayed me to be honest.

    But...

    Wouldn't adding a veteran wr help us as well? They could be our #1 and take same focus off Givens while helping Quick learn a little faster.

    I agree Givens can become our future #1. But im going to have to agree with mcpeepants

    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants232003 View Post
    Bowe and Wallace have been crippled by poor QB play. The Chiefs may have the worst QB tandem in the league(along with ARZ) and Wallace was averaging 60 yards a game with Ben(about a 1,000 yard season pace).

    We have draft picks so I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to upgrade TE, WR and OL.

    Sign one of Jennings, Bowe, and Wallace. Draft a RT/LT and a TE. Wala problem solved. I don't see any reason why we have to sign a linemen for big money when linemen come in and play well all the time. I'd much rather have Jake Matthews at 2 million than Albert or Long at 7-9 million.

    Especially since it takes a long time for most receivers to contribute. There just is no way I'm comfortable with Givens and Amendola as our #1 and #2. We'll be back to having Gibson play regularly once Danny gets hurt(Which he always does).
    Agree we need more then Givens and Amendolla. I think Quick will get there eventually, I'm thinking year 3 he'll be our #1/#2 if he can get the playbook down. He has the tools, just needs to work on that playbook.


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    Re: After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants232003 View Post
    Bowe and Wallace have been crippled by poor QB play. The Chiefs may have the worst QB tandem in the league(along with ARZ) and Wallace was averaging 60 yards a game with Ben(about a 1,000 yard season pace).

    We have draft picks so I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to upgrade TE, WR and OL.

    Sign one of Jennings, Bowe, and Wallace. Draft a RT/LT and a TE. Wala problem solved. I don't see any reason why we have to sign a linemen for big money when linemen come in and play well all the time. I'd much rather have Jake Matthews at 2 million than Albert or Long at 7-9 million.

    Especially since it takes a long time for most receivers to contribute. There just is no way I'm comfortable with Givens and Amendola as our #1 and #2. We'll be back to having Gibson play regularly once Danny gets hurt(Which he always does).
    I don't see that much more production coming from a FA receiver then what Givens is and will provide. There is no guarantee that the high paid receiver does not come in and struggle, new system, new team. Drew Bennett comes to my mind we signed him to a six-year, $30 million contract... and it still hurts to think about it.

    Drafting a O linemen is fine, but I would take a vet like Wells over a rookie. A rookie still is a rookie and needs to establish himself. Having a proven vet come in and solve the RT or LG spot would be great.

    For once it would be nice to say Bradford and SJ have the best O line they have ever played behind.

    LT: J. Long
    LG: R. Turner
    C: Wells
    RG: Dahl
    RT: Saffold

    Upgrading the O line will benefit all the receivers, TEs, running backs and the QB.

    Especially since it takes a long time for most receivers to contribute. There just is no way I'm comfortable with Givens and Amendola as our #1 and #2. We'll be back to having Gibson play regularly once Danny gets hurt(Which he always does).
    This sounds like you have more an issue with DA. If we used a first RD pick on one of the best young WR we will get something out of them. Look what we are getting from Givens. Quick was more of a long term play well have to see how that plays out. We don't know he may look like night and day next year.


    Tampa_Ram
    Wouldn't adding a veteran wr help us as well? They could be our #1 and take same focus off Givens while helping Quick learn a little faster.
    Sure it would, there are so many ways to go, but why take the focus off of Givens if he has what it takes to be elite? Quick will be in his second year with a whole off season. If he can't learn the playbook by next year what will another year do for him. His issues are mental, he's got the tools. If we drafted a Terrance William he could came in under a lot less pressure then Givens and Quick did. Having three young guys to build around Bradford for the long term could be very special. Having them playing with a O line with two pro bowlers on it would not hurt either.
    Last edited by Rambos; -11-27-2012 at 05:21 PM.

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    After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post

    Sure it would, there are so many ways to go, but why take the focus off of Givens if he has what it takes to be elite? Quick will be in his second year with a whole off season. If he can't learn the playbook by next year what will another year do for him. His issues are mental, he's got the tools. If we drafted a Terrance William he could came in under a lot less pressure then Givens and Quick did. Having three young guys to build around Bradford for the long term could be very special. Having them playing with a O line with two pro bowlers on it would not hurt either.
    When i said take focus off Givens, i meant it as he wouldnt be focused on as much from opposing defenses if we had someone like Bowe or Jennings. Which in turn might give him more chances to make plays and do even better as opposed to being the main focus beside Amendolla.

    As ive said, you present a strong argument. And im on the edge. I think im just not sold on the wr's in the draft yet. I need more time to look at them.


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    Re: After week 11...

    I'm not saying Wallace or Jennings would produce that much more than Givens. I'm saying they will produce that much more than Gibson or Quick would. Givens would still be playing a lot as would Amendola but we wouldn't have to rely on Quick or Gibson. I agree with Tampa that Quick won't make a huge impact until year 3. I see him playing more next year but still being a year away.

    Plus Rambo what happens if Amendola gets hurt again? Then we have Gibson and quick playing big roles once again.

    The really good NFL teams have great depth. We have 0 1,000 yard receivers and our best receiver is injured constantly. Sure we could draft someone but once again we'd have to wait for him to contribute. I think with Amendola, Quick and Givens we have 3 good young receivers. I'd like a veteran to complement them rather than another young guy just learning the ropes.

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    Re: After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants232003 View Post
    I'm not saying Wallace or Jennings would produce that much more than Givens. I'm saying they will produce that much more than Gibson or Quick would. Givens would still be playing a lot as would Amendola but we wouldn't have to rely on Quick or Gibson. I agree with Tampa that Quick won't make a huge impact until year 3. I see him playing more next year but still being a year away.

    Plus Rambo what happens if Amendola gets hurt again? Then we have Gibson and quick playing big roles once again.

    The really good NFL teams have great depth. We have 0 1,000 yard receivers and our best receiver is injured constantly. Sure we could draft someone but once again we'd have to wait for him to contribute. I think with Amendola, Quick and Givens we have 3 good young receivers. I'd like a veteran to complement them rather than another young guy just learning the ropes.
    I guess they way I see it... Givens can do what Wallace does... in this offense the Rams are not going to throw the ball 35-40 times a game. Are you telling me the good teams have more then one 1000 yard receiver in the same year on the roster?

    If so you need to put that list together for me.

    Plus Rambo what happens if Amendola gets hurt again? Then we have Gibson and quick playing big roles once again.
    Well lets see, how did Givens do Sunday when Danny was not 100%? 100 plus yards and a TD. Givens will end the season not the same guy he was when he started and with an off season and more time working out with Bradford in the off season these two will be ready to rip it up day one.

    I guess I can ask you the same question? What happens if Jennings got hurt again, he has not been healthy now for a couple of years. I guess I would like to have another young rookie receiver to add to the mix if Amendola did go down.

    Givens
    Quick
    Terrance William
    Gibson
    Pettis

    I think they could hold it down.

    I agree with Tampa that Quick won't make a huge impact until year 3. I see him playing more next year but still being a year away.
    All I can say is I hope you guys are wrong on that. I'm not saying he will be fully developed next year, but he should make a contribution. With Givens playing at the number one spot like he is now and being productive, Quick does not need have a huge impact next year, although it would be nice!

    Sure we could draft someone but once again we'd have to wait for him to contribute.
    I disagree, is Givens producing in year one? I'm not saying that a first round rookie in this class can come in and produce like AJ Green, but he could come in be productive. Down side of bringing in an older player is he's already older. Jennings is 29, by the time the rookies in his prime, Bradford will be in his prime.

    I think with Amendola, Quick and Givens we have 3 good young receivers. I'd like a veteran to complement them rather than another young guy just learning the ropes.
    I do agree with leadership, but when you think about it Amendola is really a vet now and is one of the leaders on this team. He can lead this group. What do we know about any of these other FA as leaders... I do know Wallace held out for big money
    Last edited by Rambos; -11-27-2012 at 09:25 PM.

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    Re: After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    I don't see that much more production coming from a FA receiver then what Givens is and will provide. There is no guarantee that the high paid receiver does not come in and struggle, new system, new team.
    Sure, a high paid receiver could come in and struggle. Or he could come in and be a difference maker on the offense, while also allowing our other receivers more room to operate as defenses shift coverage towards the new vet. It's also possible that Givens may never become a legitimate #1 receiver either. Lots of things are possible. You just have to analyze and decide on what you think is the best strategy. Criticizing the other option because it's not a guarantee is a false premise; nothing is guaranteed, so next argument.

    Even if you take Givens' numbers and average them without counting the first two games he was credited as playing in despite notching a goose egg on the stat sheet, his averages would still be lower than the numbers Brandon Lloyd (a decent but hardly outstanding receiver) accomplished when he joined last year's defunct offense mid-season.

    So, other than gut feeling based on your high opinion of Givens, I don't know why a veteran couldn't come in and outproduce Givens. He's had some great moments this year as a rookie and at this point probably attracts the most confidence in terms of future starting ability, but he hasn't been so lights out that I think one could say with any certainty that he'd match or exceed the potential contributions of better, more experienced receivers.

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    Re: After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Sure, a high paid receiver could come in and struggle. Or he could come in and be a difference maker on the offense, while also allowing our other receivers more room to operate as defenses shift coverage towards the new vet. It's also possible that Givens may never become a legitimate #1 receiver either. Lots of things are possible. You just have to analyze and decide on what you think is the best strategy. Criticizing the other option because it's not a guarantee is a false premise; nothing is guaranteed, so next argument.

    Even if you take Givens' numbers and average them without counting the first two games he was credited as playing in despite notching a goose egg on the stat sheet, his averages would still be lower than the numbers Brandon Lloyd (a decent but hardly outstanding receiver) accomplished when he joined last year's defunct offense mid-season.

    So, other than gut feeling based on your high opinion of Givens, I don't know why a veteran couldn't come in and outproduce Givens. He's had some great moments this year as a rookie and at this point probably attracts the most confidence in terms of future starting ability, but he hasn't been so lights out that I think one could say with any certainty that he'd match or exceed the potential contributions of better, more experienced receivers.
    Who invited you? LOL

    Even if you take Givens' numbers and average them without counting the first two games he was credited as playing in despite notching a goose egg on the stat sheet, his averages would still be lower than the numbers Brandon Lloyd (a decent but hardly outstanding receiver) accomplished when he joined last year's defunct offense mid-season.
    First I think we both can agree that Lloyd knew the offense he came in mid season... better then Givens knew the one he's trying to learn as a rookie.

    Givens numbers in his first 4 games are not the same as his last four. In his first four games he played in Smith;Gibson where the primary targets. Fisher Monday said Givens is now getting 30-40 plays a game. The Rams are making an effort to get him the ball not only deep, but screens and crossing routes.


    So, other than gut feeling based on your high opinion of Givens, I don't know why a veteran couldn't come in and outproduce Givens.
    No one said he could not out produce a FA, the questions is by how much? And if it's not a huge difference I have to question why spend big money on another receiver when you drafted a good one.

    Mike Wallace targeted 85 times! To produce 572 yards... 6 TD
    Givens targeted 45 times for 467 yards three TD.

    Who is more productive?


    He's had some great moments this year as a rookie and at this point probably attracts the most confidence in terms of future starting ability, but he hasn't been so lights out that I think one could say with any certainty that he'd match or exceed the potential contributions of better, more experienced receivers.
    If you read all the conversation in this thread you would have read me saying.

    Lets see how Givens finishes.
    in terms of future starting ability, but he hasn't been so lights out that I think one could say with any certainty that he'd match or exceed the potential contributions
    Did you not just say these words? Criticizing the other option because it's not a guarantee is a false premise; nothing is guaranteed.
    Last edited by Rambos; -11-27-2012 at 10:03 PM.

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    Re: After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    First I think we both can agree that Lloyd knew the offense he came in mid season... better then Givens knew the one he's trying to learn as a rookie.
    Knowing the offense is only one advantage. The fact that it was an utter disaster here, and that he had virtually no time to work with this new team before being thrown into the fire, need to be considered as well. And his numbers on average were better than Givens' in spite of those circumstances.

    Now, turn the discussion so that we're talking about (1) a more talented veteran and (2) a better offensive system, and I'm just not sure how anyone can say with confidence that they can't see a veteran being much more productive. I see it as a definite possibility among numerous possibilities.

    And even if they're evenly matched and equally productive, I'd love TWO capable starting receivers who can do damage to a defense! I'm sure Bradford would as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Givens numbers in his first 4 games are not the same as his last four. In his first four games he played in Smith;Gibson where the primary targets. Fisher Monday said Givens is now getting 30-40 plays a game. The Rams are making an effort to get him the ball not only deep, but screens and crossing routes.
    Givens was getting 40+ snaps back in Week Four or Five; it's not very accurate to suggest his snap count has drastically increased since the first quarter of the season.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    No one said he could not out produce a FA, the questions is by how much? And if it's not a huge difference I have to question why spend big money on another receiver when you drafted a good one.
    To have two and an even more dangerous offense for a change?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Mike Wallace targeted 85 times! To produce 572 yards... 6 TD
    Givens targeted 45 times for 467 yards three TD.

    Who is more productive?
    You're phrasing the question in a very black and white manner when there's plenty of nuance, considering all of the factors. One being that Wallace has played the last two and a half games without his starting quarterback, for instance.

    Additionally, it seems a bit strange to see you arguing against the acquisition of a FA veteran receiver when as recently as a week ago you were still pining over Greg Jennings.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    If you read all the conversation in this thread you would have read me saying.

    Did you not just say these words? Criticizing the other option because it's not a guarantee is a false premise; nothing is guaranteed.
    Yeah, I really have no clue what you're getting at here, sorry.

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    After week 11...

    Do stud TEs just grow on trees like crab apples???

    For every Vernon Davis, gronk, graham, gates, you have klopenstein , dominque byrd, Leonard pope, Kyle Brady, and every other decent dime a dozen te drafted early in the draft.

    I like avenger rams thought on selecting Joseph faiuria from ucla...

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    Re: After week 11...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Knowing the offense is only one advantage. The fact that it was an utter disaster here, and that he had virtually no time to work with this new team before being thrown into the fire, need to be considered as well. And his numbers on average were better than Givens' in spite of those circumstances.
    One question would you rather have Lloyd or Givens on the Rams to move forward?

    Now, turn the discussion so that we're talking about (1) a more talented veteran and (2) a better offensive system, and I'm just not sure how anyone can say with confidence that they can't see a veteran being much more productive. I see it as a definite possibility among numerous possibilities.

    It's the much more part I'm looking at? Define that, is it 300 more yards three more TDs? Does it make sense pay a huge contract to get an extra yards and a few TD when that money can we spent on a offensive line that desperately needs to be upgraded.
    And even if they're evenly matched and equally productive, I'd love TWO capable starting receivers who can do damage to a defense! I'm sure Bradford would as well.
    I'm not so sure if you ask Bradford do you want another option at receiver or another vet pro bowl linemen he would take a receiver.
    Givens was getting 40+ snaps back in Week Four or Five; it's not very accurate to suggest his snap count has drastically increased since the first quarter of the season.
    Look it up, you tell me how many snap he was getting in the first four games and how many times he was targeted vs game 5 and on. I say he has been on the field more and has been targeted more after week four.

    - Fisher is pleased with the continued evolution of rookie WR Chris Givens. Givens is now getting more involved than just running deep go routes. Yes, he caught one for a touchdown on Sunday but he also caught a tunnel screen that he turned into a big gain and ran a few other routes that yielded big plays.
    - WR Chris Givens continues to evolve before our eyes. Yes, he scored his TD on a go-route, a play that he recognized he was being covered by converted S Justin Bethel and asked for the ball in advance but he also continues to find other ways to be involved. His line for the day included 5 catches for 115 yards, the first 100-yard game of his career
    I can't imagine in his first few games he would come in and tell Bradford hey I got a rookie on me lets take a shot. In week 11 he did. For you to say he has had a few good moments is really understating what he is doing IMO.

    To have two and an even more dangerous offense for a change?
    I have suggested that we take the cash and upgrade the O line, draft another receiver in round one and draft TE Tyler Eifert also in round one. So I think I also would like to have a dangerous offense. Or at least a productive one.

    You're phrasing the question in a very black and white manner when there's plenty of nuance, considering all of the factors. One being that Wallace has played the last two and a half games without his starting quarterback, for instance.
    Who is to say he will not have to play with a back up here at times. I don't want to make this about Wallace, but Wallace does play with the one QB that can extend a play due to his ability and then take the deep shot. Wallace may be benefiting from that at times.

    Additionally, it seems a bit strange to see you arguing against the acquisition of a FA veteran receiver when as recently as a week ago you were still pining over Greg Jennings.
    Why is it strange... I started this thread by saying...

    I'm, starting to really think Givens can be as good or better then any FA receiver we can get.

    The title of the thread is
    After week 11...
    All I'm saying is after looking at how well Givens is playing maybe we don't need to use all that cash on a FA receiver. Maybe we can upgrade the O line and draft more young talent.

    The season is not over so I'm going to evaluate the play of the team as a whole and after week 11, I'm looking at other options. Talk to me after week 16 and i will have a clearer picture of what I think we should do or could do... I may be back to go get Jennings if Givens fades... I may be back to go gets a LT if Saffold get hurt again.

    Yeah, I really have no clue what you're getting at here, sorry.
    Me either LOL
    Last edited by Rambos; -11-28-2012 at 11:26 AM.

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