View Poll Results: Who Does Clanram Nation prefer goin into the combine/pro days in the first round?

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  • Ndamukong Suh

    49 68.06%
  • Gerald McCoy

    2 2.78%
  • Sam Bradford

    11 15.28%
  • Jimmy Clausen

    10 13.89%
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  1. #16
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    Bradford is 3 on my board behind the DTs. Going into this year he was in the top 3 if not number 1 on almost all boards. If the shoulder checks out we have no reason to drop him, we have the tape we know what he can do. He is the type of guy who will excel in interviews and that's where a QB specifically can make a ton of headway. Thats how Peyton Manning solidfied his spot over Ryan Leaf and its how Matt Ryan solidified his selection to the Falcons. I fully expect Bradford to shoot himself up the boards and endear himself to Devaney and company, too become the Rams selection.
    The problem with Bradford is it's not just an "Is he healthy now?" issue. Even if he's healthy, there are concerns that need to be examined about his durability at the next level, his arm strength, and how well he can operate in a pro-style offense under center rather than in a spread attack. I actually don't think the latter is going to be as big of an issue for him, but I am a bit worried about his durability. He hasn't been hit much in college (sacked 25 times in his entire college career), and his list of injuries goes back a little bit further than the AC joint this season.

    I agree that Bradford was a possible first overall pick last year, but that was last year. It's a different year with a different class and different circumstances. You can't convince yourself that a guy is worth it in 2010 because he was in the running in 2009. Otherwise, a guy like Matt Leinart shouldn't have slipped ten picks in 2006 after being mentioned as a possible first overall pick the year before to the *****.

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  2. #17
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Even if I were to accept your statement that McCoy is "more polished" (I don't agree, as I've discussed previously), wouldn't the logical choice be the guy who has MORE UPSIDE because he is not yet "polished"?
    Certainly appears logical to me. And also my reasoning for preferring Jason Smith over Eugene Monroe a year ago and Vernon Gholston over Chris Long the year before that. Well maybe the last one isn't such a good example, but it certainly is the logic I use when evaluating players.
    Last edited by Fortuninerhater; -02-17-2010 at 09:47 PM.

  3. #18
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Has to be Suh. The guy has just dominated for years.

    I would take McCoy over either of the quarterbacks too.
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  4. #19
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I voted Suh. He is, IMO, the best combination of value and need on the board.

    I wouldn't throw something through my TV screen if they selected a quarterback, because I understand the team's need and the value of the position. But I simply don't agree with reaching for need with that kind of pick, and I think that's what they'd be doing by taking a quarterback first overall ahead of Suh or McCoy.

    Right now, neither Bradford nor Clausen are among the top five prospects on my overall draft board. It's just really hard for me to justify taking a guy first overall when he's not one of the top five best prospects in the class. And what's interesting is that, in some rankings around the 'net, they're not even in the top 8-10.

    Maybe they gain some momentum and rise up boards a bit through interviews at the combine or in their private workouts. If so, I'm open to adjusting my thought process, as everyone should be. But right now, as it has been for a while now, I still prefer Suh.
    Couldn't say what I think and feel any better and IMO I think by listening to how Devaney and Spags answer questions in the media they think alot along the same lines to... If we don't pick Suh I think the pick would be McCoy before a QB just for the shear fact its the best option of the NEED vs. VALUE formula.

  5. #20
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Fine, let's look at common opponents:

    2009 (Baylor, Texas Tech, Texas)

    Suh: 21 tackles, 5 sacks
    McCoy: 7 tackles, 3 sacks

    2008 (Baylor, Kansas, Kansas State, Texas Tech, Missouri)

    Suh: 36 tackles, 3 sacks
    McCoy: 9 tackes, 2 sacks

    Total (vs. Common Opponents, 2008/9)

    Suh: 57 tackles, 8 sacks
    McCoy: 16 tackles, 5 sacks
    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Ok, those are rather impressive.
    Another for SUH, please!

    TX i see where your trying to get at. And, if what you were saying were true about Suh being more of a "relentless" type player, my main concern with him would be once he came to the pros, that he would overthink, losing his fire a bit to focus more on technique. Of course he wont be able to "manhandle" guys in the NFL, but i think he'll develop and transition very quickly so i have no doubt this guy will be a dominant force for years to come. If not with us, with someone else.

  6. #21
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    The problem with Bradford is it's not just an "Is he healthy now?" issue. Even if he's healthy, there are concerns that need to be examined about his durability at the next level, his arm strength, and how well he can operate in a pro-style offense under center rather than in a spread attack. I actually don't think the latter is going to be as big of an issue for him, but I am a bit worried about his durability. He hasn't been hit much in college (sacked 25 times in his entire college career), and his list of injuries goes back a little bit further than the AC joint this season.

    I agree that Bradford was a possible first overall pick last year, but that was last year. It's a different year with a different class and different circumstances. You can't convince yourself that a guy is worth it in 2010 because he was in the running in 2009. Otherwise, a guy like Matt Leinart shouldn't have slipped ten picks in 2006 after being mentioned as a possible first overall pick the year before to the *****.
    I agree 100% on everything you said. For me it's not a question of whether Bradford can transition into a pro style offense, (I think he can make the transition rather quickly and effectively, actually) it's just a matter of whether you can pour $42+ guaranteed dollars into a quarterback who has durability concerns. From the games I have seen, he has taken some NFL sized hits but this was the season we were expecting to see him take some more pressure with a depleted offensive line and the first hit he takes he's essentially done for the season. I just don't envision anyway possible you can justify giving him that type of money first overall with the lingering question marks you have about him.

    Your second point also touches upon another interesting bit of information. At this time last year, Detroit fans were in favour of taking Aaron Curry or Jason Smith and then drafting Sam Bradford this year. Well, who's to say the same doesn't happen with Locker next year? He could get injured or suffer a dramatic drop off that kills his value that he would've had entering this year. For that reason, I could see why teams like the Rams would feel compelled to grab the QB this season but I just don't see any case where that is warranted barring a trade down. Suh and McCoy are always mentioned in the same breath as the top players of this draft where as Bradford and Clausen are valued all over the place. All it takes is one team (and that could very well be us), but the inconsistency regarding where they fall in this draft in comparison to Suh and McCoy tells me that neither one is worth the first overall pick.

  7. #22
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    I agree 100% on everything you said. For me it's not a question of whether Bradford can transition into a pro style offense, (I think he can make the transition rather quickly and effectively, actually) it's just a matter of whether you can pour $42+ guaranteed dollars into a quarterback who has durability concerns. From the games I have seen, he has taken some NFL sized hits but this was the season we were expecting to see him take some more pressure with a depleted offensive line and the first hit he takes he's essentially done for the season. I just don't envision anyway possible you can justify giving him that type of money first overall with the lingering question marks you have about him.

    Your second point also touches upon another interesting bit of information. At this time last year, Detroit fans were in favour of taking Aaron Curry or Jason Smith and then drafting Sam Bradford this year. Well, who's to say the same doesn't happen with Locker next year? He could get injured or suffer a dramatic drop off that kills his value that he would've had entering this year. For that reason, I could see why teams like the Rams would feel compelled to grab the QB this season but I just don't see any case where that is warranted barring a trade down. Suh and McCoy are always mentioned in the same breath as the top players of this draft where as Bradford and Clausen are valued all over the place. All it takes is one team (and that could very well be us), but the inconsistency regarding where they fall in this draft in comparison to Suh and McCoy tells me that neither one is worth the first overall pick.
    Outstanding points, especially about the fluctuation in the draft value of the two quarterbacks. It's tough to make a case for a passer when some view him as a Top Five pick, some as a Top 15 pick, and some barely a first rounder.

    It feels strange that the draft has rolled around and we seem to be in such agreement. We need to find a prospect that we can disagree and argue over.
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  8. #23
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    This poll pisses me off...

    More and more ppl have begun to believe that Suh is somehow inferior to McCoy or Bradford. There have been no new developments. Absolute nothing has changed. Bradford hasnt played in months. Suh's stats are still just about double McCoy's.

    I'm flabergasted...puzzled...clueless...
    Last edited by The Optimistic Lamb; -02-24-2010 at 05:24 PM.

  9. #24
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by The Optimistic Lamb View Post
    This poll pisses me off...

    More and more ppl have begun to believe that Suh is somehow inferior to McCoy or Bradford. There have been no new developments. Absolute nothing has changed. Bradford hasnt played in months. Suh's stats are still just about double McCoy's.

    I'm am flabergasted...puzzled...clueless...
    me too dude at least mcshay put suh back on top of his mock draft
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  10. #25
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    The problem with Bradford is it's not just an "Is he healthy now?" issue. Even if he's healthy, there are concerns that need to be examined about his durability at the next level, his arm strength, and how well he can operate in a pro-style offense under center rather than in a spread attack. I actually don't think the latter is going to be as big of an issue for him, but I am a bit worried about his durability. He hasn't been hit much in college (sacked 25 times in his entire college career), and his list of injuries goes back a little bit further than the AC joint this season.

    I agree that Bradford was a possible first overall pick last year, but that was last year. It's a different year with a different class and different circumstances. You can't convince yourself that a guy is worth it in 2010 because he was in the running in 2009. Otherwise, a guy like Matt Leinart shouldn't have slipped ten picks in 2006 after being mentioned as a possible first overall pick the year before to the *****.
    I don't see one issue with his arm strength. I'm not sure how this one comes up, if you've watched the film. His arm length is good. He can sling the ball a great distant pretty effortlessly. Much different than a prospect like Clausen, who relies on putting his body behind each throw to get the necessary velocity and distance required.

    The other two issues are big issues though, big enough to make anyone hesitant enough to pass up on him during the draft and the higher in the draft you pick, the more hesitation you're going to have. So I see the Rams as being probably the most hesitant here in regards to drafting Bradford.

    One thing that bothers me about Bradford is the questions regarding his poise. I brought this up on another forum. I think this is a huge aspect behind being a successful QB, especially at the next level, and especially for a team like the Rams where you WILL face adversity. Your poise under pressure, both physically and mentally will be a determining factor in your success. Problem is we haven't ever seen Bradford face much of any, both the physical or the mental. So this is probably the biggest question mark for me of all.

  11. #26
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Outstanding points, especially about the fluctuation in the draft value of the two quarterbacks. It's tough to make a case for a passer when some view him as a Top Five pick, some as a Top 15 pick, and some barely a first rounder.
    What's worse is quantifying these analysis and projections. I'll get to what I mean in a minute. There is something I have to bring up first.

    Right now we're barely in the middle of February and the combine hasn't even rolled around yet. The evaluation process is far from being over. INCOMPLETE. One of the two biggest determining factors, (especially when it comes to the Rams and Devaney) haven't even been checked up on yet. Those are #1: Character. The interview process. and #2: Injuries and the medical evaluations.

    But for the better part of three months, determinations have already been made. Projections as far as stacking the draft and draft boards have begun and even to this day are barely altered. I'm not talking about the pros, the pro teams, the personnel departments. No I'm talking about the draftniks, the wanna be scouts, even the proffessional guys like Mayock who do pretty well with it.

    Heres what kills me though. A lot of these determinations have been made and I go back to the first thing I mentioned quantifying these rankings and analysis. Mayock comes to the Senior Bowl, and this is just a few weeks ago. Tells us all about his QB rankings and how/why the top few guys are where they are. Then when asked how much time he has spent evaluating the game tape... very little. Hasn't even done much tape watching on the different guys. He already had his mind made up on where he thinks Clausen should go but then during a broadcast when asked how much tape of Clausen he has seen, he admits, only two games. TWO games?! What can you tell about a guy after two games? Maybe you saw the two best games of his life? Maybe the two worst? Maybe a mix of somewhere inbetween. The one thing I do know is that is NOT enough. And this isn't joe blow who never saw a game or some internet jerk off who just happens to own a website, this is a reputable guy, Mike Mayock.

    So yeah, there might be a lot of fluxuation between the rankings but for the majority, overall, they don't mean ****. Especially right now where we're at in the evaluation process. Take all that stuff with a grain of salt. I choose to watch the game tape myself and make my own judgements and I certainly wouldn't be making knee jerk reactions after one or two games of watching a guy.
    Last edited by Ramzee; -02-24-2010 at 03:51 AM.

  12. #27
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Fine, let's look at common opponents:

    2009 (Baylor, Texas Tech, Texas)

    Suh: 21 tackles, 5 sacks
    McCoy: 7 tackles, 3 sacks

    2008 (Baylor, Kansas, Kansas State, Texas Tech, Missouri)

    Suh: 36 tackles, 3 sacks
    McCoy: 9 tackes, 2 sacks

    Total (vs. Common Opponents, 2008/9)

    Suh: 57 tackles, 8 sacks
    McCoy: 16 tackles, 5 sacks

    I agree that stats don't always tell the whole story, but here the disparity is HUGE. So... given that they are essentially the same size, and Suh has outproduced McCoy by a very big margin (no matter how you slice it), I think the choice is pretty clear.
    Stats, stats, stats. In this case they don't mean as much as you seem to be emphasizing. That's nice and all that there is a huge disparity but no one even bothers to bring up why. So why?

    Let's start with the system for one. McCoy: A 1 gap, attacking up the field penetrator at UT versus... Suh: a 2 gap NT in a read and react system. First the two systems and responsibilities are night and day different. I really shouldn't have to get into why but I will.

    It's very easy to scheme against a guy who penetrates in a one gap system. For a million different reasons but this would definitely affect his tackle statistics first and foremost. On run downs it's easy to isolate a guy like this, especially in college where you will definitely game plan against a guy as dominant as he can be. Not only that but he lines up a ton during the games at 5 tech, especially against the spread offenses mentioned above but still plays with one gap responsibilities. This is putting him on one side of the field and these spread offenses don't run vertically, they run laterally, so it's pretty easy just to run away from a guy like McCoy and that alone will isolate him over the course of the game.

    A 2 gap guy, a bit harder to do. He doesn't leave the line of scrimmage. He isn't penetrating up the field. He's not going to run himself out of plays from the get go. You can't isolate him when he's in the middle of the field. Especially a guy like Suh and he has two really good things going for him in this respect. Spread offenses run zone blocking schemes and what kind of lineman do you get to run ZBS? Smaller, lighter ones. What are their biggest weakness? Strength and power. What does Suh excel at? Strength and power. So you got a guy in Suh who is pretty much living the fantasy here as far as favorable match ups go. In more ways than one.

    That's just one area where the stats aren't telling the whole story that affects the situation here. Let's explore another. Two things here. Suh played in two more games this season than Gerald McCoy did. 14 games played versus 12. The number difference, especially between a more productive Suh, is going to just create more separation in the numbers here.

    The other thing, plays per game. This I feel is a big one. I have seen the snaps per game for both teams and both teams are pretty much equal in this regard in defensive snaps per game, with Nebraska having a slight edge here. What I don't know where to find is individual snaps per game per player. I don't have those numbers in front of me and I don't know where you could find statistics like this but I've watched a LOT of tape on these two guys from the last two seasons and imho it's not even close when you compare who plays more snaps per game.

    The thing to note about this is, McCoy gets subbed out routinely the way you'd expect a typical pro team to sub out their defensive lineman to keep them fresh. You'd expect as much with a 1 gap penetrator like McCoy who is constantly rushing up the field with a lot of intensity every play. Especially against these spread offenses that exploit the field laterally. You'll find him covering a lot of real estate on Saturdays.

    Suh on the other hand, I can't recall when I've seen this guy leave the field. Ever. No kidding. Just ask a Nebraska fan who watches every game and they'll back that up. He does not come off the field. This is a nice testament to his durability and conditioning. It seems to me as an observer that he doesn't have to exert as much energy per play as a guy like McCoy would have to, on your average typical play because of the read and react defense Nebraska plays and his responsibilities in it. So he is able to sustain himself longer. Increasing the longevity of his performance. That's not taking anything away from the guy either. He's truly exceptional in this regard but I feel as if he plays in many more plays per game than a guy like McCoy does. I wish I could find the statistics to back that up.

    Last but not least it should be mentioned that on top of all these things, McCoy has a propensity to overrun plays and creates an extraordinary amount of near misses. More than many guys I've happened to watch over the years. His first step truly is ridiculous and he gets up field so quickly, that at times he takes himself out of plays, that other guys, probably would make, even though they lack the elite athleticism to actually get themselves in that position to begin with.

    So let's recap:

    - System. Two completely different systems. One that lends itself favorably towards tackle statistics and one that does not.

    - Games played. Two more for Suh than McCoy.

    - Plays per game. Don't have the actual numbers but my eyes would say there is a significant difference here between players.

    - A general weakness of McCoy's, in over running and consistently barely missing guys on plays. Which is something that can and will be worked on.

    I think between these reasons, you'll find the main differences between the tackle statistic disparities. You'll notice that minus the Texas game, that the sack difference really isn't different at all and I'd bet money, just from watching the actual games, that McCoy's sacks were of better quality than that of Suh's.
    Last edited by Ramzee; -02-24-2010 at 04:50 AM.

  13. #28
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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by TakeSuh View Post
    me too dude at least mcshay put suh back on top of his mock draft
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    CRAP Thats a sick video!!!

    The argument is over. Suh is the man.

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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramzee View Post
    Stats, stats, stats. In this case they don't mean as much as you seem to be emphasizing. That's nice and all that there is a huge disparity but no one even bothers to bring up why. So why?

    Let's start with the system for one. McCoy: A 1 gap, attacking up the field penetrator at UT versus... Suh: a 2 gap NT in a read and react system. First the two systems and responsibilities are night and day different. I really shouldn't have to get into why but I will.

    It's very easy to scheme against a guy who penetrates in a one gap system. For a million different reasons but this would definitely affect his tackle statistics first and foremost. On run downs it's easy to isolate a guy like this, especially in college where you will definitely game plan against a guy as dominant as he can be. Not only that but he lines up a ton during the games at 5 tech, especially against the spread offenses mentioned above but still plays with one gap responsibilities. This is putting him on one side of the field and these spread offenses don't run vertically, they run laterally, so it's pretty easy just to run away from a guy like McCoy and that alone will isolate him over the course of the game.

    A 2 gap guy, a bit harder to do. He doesn't leave the line of scrimmage. He isn't penetrating up the field. He's not going to run himself out of plays from the get go. You can't isolate him when he's in the middle of the field. Especially a guy like Suh and he has two really good things going for him in this respect. Spread offenses run zone blocking schemes and what kind of lineman do you get to run ZBS? Smaller, lighter ones. What are their biggest weakness? Strength and power. What does Suh excel at? Strength and power. So you got a guy in Suh who is pretty much living the fantasy here as far as favorable match ups go. In more ways than one.

    That's just one area where the stats aren't telling the whole story that affects the situation here. Let's explore another. Two things here. Suh played in two more games this season than Gerald McCoy did. 14 games played versus 12. The number difference, especially between a more productive Suh, is going to just create more separation in the numbers here.

    The other thing, plays per game. This I feel is a big one. I have seen the snaps per game for both teams and both teams are pretty much equal in this regard in defensive snaps per game, with Nebraska having a slight edge here. What I don't know where to find is individual snaps per game per player. I don't have those numbers in front of me and I don't know where you could find statistics like this but I've watched a LOT of tape on these two guys from the last two seasons and imho it's not even close when you compare who plays more snaps per game.

    The thing to note about this is, McCoy gets subbed out routinely the way you'd expect a typical pro team to sub out their defensive lineman to keep them fresh. You'd expect as much with a 1 gap penetrator like McCoy who is constantly rushing up the field with a lot of intensity every play. Especially against these spread offenses that exploit the field laterally. You'll find him covering a lot of real estate on Saturdays.

    Suh on the other hand, I can't recall when I've seen this guy leave the field. Ever. No kidding. Just ask a Nebraska fan who watches every game and they'll back that up. He does not come off the field. This is a nice testament to his durability and conditioning. It seems to me as an observer that he doesn't have to exert as much energy per play as a guy like McCoy would have to, on your average typical play because of the read and react defense Nebraska plays and his responsibilities in it. So he is able to sustain himself longer. Increasing the longevity of his performance. That's not taking anything away from the guy either. He's truly exceptional in this regard but I feel as if he plays in many more plays per game than a guy like McCoy does. I wish I could find the statistics to back that up.

    Last but not least it should be mentioned that on top of all these things, McCoy has a propensity to overrun plays and creates an extraordinary amount of near misses. More than many guys I've happened to watch over the years. His first step truly is ridiculous and he gets up field so quickly, that at times he takes himself out of plays, that other guys, probably would make, even though they lack the elite athleticism to actually get themselves in that position to begin with.

    So let's recap:

    - System. Two completely different systems. One that lends itself favorably towards tackle statistics and one that does not.

    - Games played. Two more for Suh than McCoy.

    - Plays per game. Don't have the actual numbers but my eyes would say there is a significant difference here between players.

    - A general weakness of McCoy's, in over running and consistently barely missing guys on plays. Which is something that can and will be worked on.

    I think between these reasons, you'll find the main differences between the tackle statistic disparities. You'll notice that minus the Texas game, that the sack difference really isn't different at all and I'd bet money, just from watching the actual games, that McCoy's sacks were of better quality than that of Suh's.

    dumbest thing ive read suh was just dominant the two defensive tackles suh and crick got the most pressure everyplay it was not the system it was just them being beast.

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    Re: Another Poll: Suh, McCoy, Bradford, Clausen

    better quality sacks for mccoy, a defensive tackles tackles are not full on head speed tackles they grab and throw and rap! and a sack is a sack no matter how it looks and i promise you that suhs sacks when he throws the qb are better than anything else

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