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  1. #16
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    I do tend to go outside the norm on these. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. We'll see how this one pans out.


  2. #17
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Hey Av

    I hope it turns out that way. Maybe Jasper Brinkley MLB in the 3rd.
    I know the Rams need more WR's maybe Ramses Bardin in the 4th.
    I would like to see a DE taken somewhere in the draft.

  3. #18
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    16, you are right, guys like Monroe do come in every draft. However, they go quick in the draft and if you think that the Rams can pick up a Monroe next year that means you think another 2-14 season is looming even with picking up Curry.
    NO I don't think the Rams will go 2-14 but a 6-10 7-9 record is more realistic. In that spot of the draft the Rams in two Drafts from now could pick up a tackle like the Broncos did with Ryan Clady or the Panthers did with Jeff Otah.

  4. #19
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    I like Harvin to Atlanta.

    I like Harvin fullstop. Would be fun to see him in Rams colours, but really don't think it would be a good fit at all. Shame.

    ...but Harvin's dynamic play-making with Roddy White and Harry Douglas at Wideout (Jenkins to a lesser extent), then throw in Burner-Turner and Norwood at tailback... whoa! That's only a TE away from being a very fast and scary offense!

    *I didn't forget Ryan, I assumed he was a given!

  5. #20
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce4life View Post
    NO I don't think the Rams will go 2-14 but a 6-10 7-9 record is more realistic. In that spot of the draft the Rams in two Drafts from now could pick up a tackle like the Broncos did with Ryan Clady or the Panthers did with Jeff Otah.

    That's awful risky, especially with Barron coming into his contract season. Not saying it can't happen, just saying that's a big risk to take.

  6. #21
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    Solid draft; however, I feel that not drafting Curry will be a huge mistake. Tackles like Monroe come in every draft, and there not even SPECTACULAR must draft players such as Orlando Pace, Jake Long, Robert Gallery, ect. Are they fine players? Yes, but it's easier to find a player like Monroe, J. Smith, and Andre Smith in drafts than finding a spectacular linebacker in Aaron Curry in the draft.
    I dunno, I know at least one draft service that compares Monroe to Walter Jones. I would also draw your attention to a recent Pat Kirwan tidbit about Monroe and Smith, which said, "After talking to many people in the NFL, I found that there's a split decision on who is the best offensive tackle in the draft, Baylor's Jason Smith or Virginia's Eugene Monroe. The one thing that rang loud and clear all day was both players deserve to go in the top four picks and the team that lands the second tackle will not mind a bit."

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    If you look at all the top defenses (Pittsburgh, Tennessee, Baltimore) they all have that one linebacker who disrupts everything.
    Did any of them spend second overall picks to get that linebacker?

    It's interesting that two of the teams you cited either run a 3-4 as their base defense (Pittsburgh) or, if they don't use it as their base, mix it in quite a bit (Baltimore).

    So it's kind of apples to oranges there, especially since the more important linebackers on both of those teams are the OLB pass rushers, not the middle/inside linebackers. Harrison and Woodley are certainly more impactful to the Steelers than Farrior and Foote, and when it came time for Baltimore to franchise tag someone, they tagged the OLB pass rusher in Suggs rather than the MLB in Lewis.

    The other team you mentioned is Tennessee, whose MLB is Stephen Tulloch (who?). I doubt he was the disrupting LB you were referring to. I hope it wasn't Keith Bulluck, because he's not the player he used to be. If anything, the Titans are an example of a defense succeeding without stud talent at linebacker.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    Also, I feel in Round 2 that we can still pick up a good tackle, I do not think that we can find another Curry. It goes Curry, and then drops off to another level with Rey Maualuga and James L. from Ohio State.
    The drop off isn't just at linebacker, unless you're going to tell me there isn't much of a difference between Smith/Monroe and Britton/Beatty/Loadholt. If that's the case, I don't know what to tell you besides I couldn't disagree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    How can you justify that? Teams come into the draft with all different types of needs. Not every draft is there a Top 7 or 8 that has a Top need of tackle. And plus, as you've noticed this year. Other tackles emmerge knocking some of the (former) higher rated players down, thus ending up with a dropping player.

    Who knows, we could go 7 - 9 and pick 12th or so, and still end up with a fine offensive lineman.

    I mean, look at where we chose Barron and he was one of the, if not the top rated tackle on some peoples draft boards coming out.
    How has that Barron pick worked out for us?

    Over the last decade, the draft's top offensive tackle has come off the board with the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 13th, 2nd, 8th, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 14th, and 7th picks. The average of those draft slots is the fifth overall pick. Only twice in the last decade has the top rated OT slipped out of the top ten picks. Only four times in the last decade has the top rated offensive tackle slipped out of the draft's top five picks.

    Over the last decade, the draft's top 4-3 linebacker has come off the board with the 9th, 11th, 5th, 14th, 12th, 29th, 23rd, 11th, 2nd, 9th, and 12th picks. The average of those draft slots is the 12th overall pick. Only four times in the last decade has a 4-3 linebacker gone in the top ten picks of the draft. Only two times in the last decade has a 4-3 linebacker gone in the top five picks.

    Based on past precedent, if the Rams go 7-9 and wind up somewhere around pick 12, they're far more likely to have a shot at the draft's best 4-3 LB than they are the draft's best OT. As for whether or not they can still get a good OT at the twelve spot, who knows? If things fall the way they did in 2006 or 2007, the answer would be no.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce4life View Post
    NO I don't think the Rams will go 2-14 but a 6-10 7-9 record is more realistic. In that spot of the draft the Rams in two Drafts from now could pick up a tackle like the Broncos did with Ryan Clady or the Panthers did with Jeff Otah.
    Or a linebacker like Patrick Willis or Derrick Johnson. You can make that argument both ways.

  7. #22
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Definitely an unconventional draft.
    It will be interesting to see if Chicago goes for Nicks, or Heyward Bey in the first.
    Obviously, they need a WR, but Heyward -bey is basically a one-trick pony and he is a clone of hester. He is first round potential because of he is a vertical threat. I think they will be targeting a possesion reciever, or at leats they should be. Nicks would be a slight reach though, maybe they go with a pass rusher and hope for robiskie or williams in the second? Interesting.....

  8. #23
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    If the Rams want a LT with the 2nd pick, maybe they should offer it to Buffalo for Jason Peters, who at this point is far better than Monroe or Smith.

  9. #24
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    If the Rams want a LT with the 2nd pick, maybe they should offer it to Buffalo for Jason Peters, who at this point is far better than Monroe or Smith.
    Disagree completely. Peters gave up more sacks than any starting left tackle in the league last season, and he did it in only 13 games. In two years, he's given up 17.5 sacks and has been penalized 14 times.

    I'll take my chances with Monroe or Smith, thanks.

  10. #25
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Disagree completely. Peters gave up more sacks than any starting left tackle in the league last season, and he did it in only 13 games. In two years, he's given up 17.5 sacks and has been penalized 14 times.

    I'll take my chances with Monroe or Smith, thanks.

    If you'd rather take your chances with two guys who've never played a down of football in the NFL, over a 2-time probowler at a position you yourself proclaimed as one of the most important on a football field, then that's certainly your prerogative, but I completely disagree with your logic.

  11. #26
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Some of the posts I've read recently concerning who the Rams should draft prompted me to do a little research.

    Some posts on the subject might lead you to believe that if you pass on a LT in the first round, you have completely blown an opportunity to nail down player that will help change your franchises fortunes for years to come.

    But upon further review, I found that there are several starting LTs in the NFL that were not drafted in the 1st round. And you might be surprised to find that there are some pretty recognizeable names on the list.

    Tony Ugoh-Colts-2nd rd

    Khalif Barnes-Jags/Raiders-2nd rd

    Michael Roos-Titans-2nd rd

    Flozell Adams-Cowboys-2nd rd

    Matt Light-Patriots-2nd rd

    Marcus McNeil-Chargers-2nd rd

    Chad Clifton-Packers-2nd rd

    Mike Gandy-Cardinals-3rd rd

    Max Starks-Steelers-3rd rd

    Jared Gaither-Ravens-5th rd

    David Deihl-Giants-5th rd

    and believe it or not, 2-time probowler Jason Peters-Bills-NOT DRAFTED

    My point is, (contrary to what some would have you believe), good LTs like any other position, can be had outside of the first round.

  12. #27
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    i personally don't care whether we draft one of the OTs or Curry..any of them will make are team much better..im leaning towards curry cause we got so much invested in our d line and our secondary to not draft a playmaker in the middle...
    also if the rams dont draft Ramses Barden ill be really dissappointed..i think he was born to be a ram

  13. #28
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    If you'd rather take your chances with two guys who've never played a down of football in the NFL, over a 2-time probowler at a position you yourself proclaimed as one of the most important on a football field, then that's certainly your prerogative, but I completely disagree with your logic.
    Yes, I'll take my chance with two guys who have never played a down of football in the NFL, who are widely viewed as two of the top five prospects in this draft class, over someone who finished dead last in sacks allowed in 2008 when compared to fellow starting left tackles. Given Peters' performance last year, I guess I don't see how such a position is so illogical.

    I'm really not sure why you'd tout Peters' Pro Bowl résumé considering those were his two worst years statistically. He allowed 17.5 sacks during those two "Pro Bowl" seasons. The fact that Peters gets voted onto the roster after finishing dead last for starting left tackles in sacks allowed should make everyone take a deeper look at what a player actually did before using his Pro Bowl appearance as supporting evidence for their talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Some of the posts I've read recently concerning who the Rams should draft prompted me to do a little research.

    Some posts on the subject might lead you to believe that if you pass on a LT in the first round, you have completely blown an opportunity to nail down player that will help change your franchises fortunes for years to come.

    But upon further review, I found that there are several starting LTs in the NFL that were not drafted in the 1st round. And you might be surprised to find that there are some pretty recognizeable names on the list.
    That's true, though I did some research as well, and I found that nearly 80% of the league's starting left tackles of 2008 came from the first two rounds of the draft. Over half of the league's starting left tackles came from the first round; 13 of them came in the top fifteen picks.

    My position has always been that the Rams need to go OT with one of their first two picks. But the reason I've been leaning towards OT with the first round pick specifically is because, this time around, there's a good chance there isn't a worthwhile LT prospect available when the Rams pick.

    We saw a run on tackles last year (8 in the first round) that resulted in absolutely zero tackles being taken in the second round. I don't think history will repeat itself to that extent, but I think it's incredibly possible that 5-6 tackles (J. Smith, Monroe, A. Smith, Oher, and then Britton and/or Beatty) either go in the first round or before the Rams pick in the second.

    If so, who does St. Louis take? No OT at that point, at least IMO, is good value with that selection, nor do I feel good about the remaining tackles' left-side potential at that point. At that point, who are we talking about? Phil Loadholt, who IMO is limited to being a right tackle, and Jamon Meredith, who is hardly a guarantee at left tackle and does not have top intangibles. And I would argue that either of them with pick 35 isn't good value.

    Meanwhile, the Rams are guaranteed to get one of the two top tackles with the second pick, and as Pat Kirwan recently pointed out after talking with people within the league at the owner's meeting, "both players deserve to go in the top four picks and the team that lands the second tackle will not mind a bit."

    If the Rams can take Curry in the first and Beatty in the second, I think that'd be a very good first day. Heck, let's just say Beatty or Britton, even though I'm personally less of a fan of Britton. But I simply do not have a lot of confidence that either of them will be there in the second, not when NFL teams value the tackle position as much as they do. Besides the Rams, I think you can make a strong case for the following teams taking an OT in the first round: Detroit, Kansas City, Seattle, Cincy, Oakland, Jacksonville, Green Bay, San Francisco, Buffalo, Washington, Chicago, Philadelphia, Minnesota, and Pittsburgh.

    Will one of the six top tackles make it through that gauntlet? Maybe, but IMO it's a rather large gamble to risk it. And if we aren't picking a tackle in the first two rounds, it's going to be a rather significant uphill battle for a tackle selected later to turn into a quality long-term starter on the blind side.

  14. #29
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Yes, I'll take my chance with two guys who have never played a down of football in the NFL, who are widely viewed as two of the top five prospects in this draft class, over someone who finished dead last in sacks allowed in 2008 when compared to fellow starting left tackles. Given Peters' performance last year, I guess I don't see how such a position is so illogical.

    I'm really not sure why you'd tout Peters' Pro Bowl résumé considering those were his two worst years statistically. He allowed 17.5 sacks during those two "Pro Bowl" seasons. The fact that Peters gets voted onto the roster after finishing dead last for starting left tackles in sacks allowed should make everyone take a deeper look at what a player actually did before using his Pro Bowl appearance as supporting evidence for their talent.



    That's true, though I did some research as well, and I found that nearly 80% of the league's starting left tackles of 2008 came from the first two rounds of the draft. Over half of the league's starting left tackles came from the first round; 13 of them came in the top fifteen picks.

    My position has always been that the Rams need to go OT with one of their first two picks. But the reason I've been leaning towards OT with the first round pick specifically is because, this time around, there's a good chance there isn't a worthwhile LT prospect available when the Rams pick.

    We saw a run on tackles last year (8 in the first round) that resulted in absolutely zero tackles being taken in the second round. I don't think history will repeat itself to that extent, but I think it's incredibly possible that 5-6 tackles (J. Smith, Monroe, A. Smith, Oher, and then Britton and/or Beatty) either go in the first round or before the Rams pick in the second.

    If so, who does St. Louis take? No OT at that point, at least IMO, is good value with that selection, nor do I feel good about the remaining tackles' left-side potential at that point. At that point, who are we talking about? Phil Loadholt, who IMO is limited to being a right tackle, and Jamon Meredith, who is hardly a guarantee at left tackle and does not have top intangibles. And I would argue that either of them with pick 35 isn't good value.

    Meanwhile, the Rams are guaranteed to get one of the two top tackles with the second pick, and as Pat Kirwan recently pointed out after talking with people within the league at the owner's meeting, "both players deserve to go in the top four picks and the team that lands the second tackle will not mind a bit."

    If the Rams can take Curry in the first and Beatty in the second, I think that'd be a very good first day. Heck, let's just say Beatty or Britton, even though I'm personally less of a fan of Britton. But I simply do not have a lot of confidence that either of them will be there in the second, not when NFL teams value the tackle position as much as they do. Besides the Rams, I think you can make a strong case for the following teams taking an OT in the first round: Detroit, Kansas City, Seattle, Cincy, Oakland, Jacksonville, Green Bay, San Francisco, Buffalo, Washington, Chicago, Philadelphia, Minnesota, and Pittsburgh.

    Will one of the six top tackles make it through that gauntlet? Maybe, but IMO it's a rather large gamble to risk it. And if we aren't picking a tackle in the first two rounds, it's going to be a rather significant uphill battle for a tackle selected later to turn into a quality long-term starter on the blind side.

    My point begins and ends with Jason Peters.

    As to why he as you said allowed the most sacks of all LTs, I would offer that perhaps he played hurt for much of the season. Who knows? I certainly don't, pure speculation on my part. But what I do know is he made the probowl for the second time after not even being drafted.

    Anybody who knows football, knows that it's virtually impossible for most non-drafties to even make a team, let alone the pro-bowl. And this guy has done it twice. I ask you what's not to respect about that?

    I don't need to do an investigation as to how he made it as you suggest, If the league says he's a pro-bowler, then gosh darnit, that's good enough for me.


    As to the second part of your post, I will just close by reminding you once again, that Jason Peters was not drafted in any round.

  15. #30
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    Re: Av's "Top 35" Mock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    As to why he as you said allowed the most sacks of all LTs, I would offer that perhaps he played hurt for much of the season. Who knows? I certainly don't, pure speculation on my part. But what I do know is he made the probowl for the second time after not even being drafted.

    Anybody who knows football, knows that it's virtually impossible for most non-drafties to even make a team, let alone the pro-bowl. And this guy has done it twice. I ask you what's not to respect about that?

    I don't need to do an investigation as to how he made it as you suggest, If the league says he's a pro-bowler, then gosh darnit, that's good enough for me.
    It's hard to respect an accolade when it was awarded after the individual performed the worst of anyone starting at his position. I recognize that succeeding in the NFL as an UDFA is a very notable accomplishment, but that doesn't change the fact that he was the worst pass protecting left tackle in the league last year. How anyone can respect and even advertise a player's Pro Bowl appearance knowing that is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    As to the second part of your post, I will just close by reminding you once again, that Jason Peters was not drafted in any round.
    And you yourself emphasized how absolutely rare his story is, so I'm not sure why you'd respond to my post by reminding me about him.

    Again, nearly 80% of the league started a left tackle in 2008 that came from either the first or second round of the draft. I agree that such a figure means it's not impossible to find a starting LT later on. But it certainly suggests it's a pretty tough task to accomplish and be successful at.

    I'd also point out that the 20% of starting left tackles who weren't first or second round picks are at best a mixed bag when it comes to talent. For every Jason Peters or Donald Penn, there's a Mike Gandy, John St. Clair, or Mario Henderson, marginal starters who are either journeymen or in need of replacement or both.

    And again, I think there's certainly very realistic reasons to doubt that one of the top six OT prospects will be there when the Rams pick, and I don't want to see them reach for a lesser prospect of poorer value because of necessity. Thus, I'm leaning first round OT. Especially since the Rams are in a position to choose one of if not the best in this class.

    Let me know which undrafted offensive lineman you're leaning towards, and we'll see how he does in the next couple of years.
    Last edited by Nick; -03-28-2009 at 12:19 PM.

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