Brown vs. Barnes, help please

[general counsel]

Nick et al, question for our resident draft experts. I have seen many of you suggest that brown is our best choice at #19. I defer to your personnel assesment since the draft is not my strongest area. I am 100% supportive of the concept that by far our biggest need is right tackle (with safety of course being second).

In light of the need for right tackle, why do so many people on the board seem to suggest that if brown is gone, we pass on barnes. Kipper has them rated right next to each other on his big board, and at one point actually had barnes ahead of brown.

The question really is whether if brown is gone, do we go for barnes or (as nick has advocated) the best available db (or the best available safety, especially if davis is available.)

If brown and davis are both gone, what do we do.

How does barnes compare for example with scott tercero, which appears to me to be our current alternative.

thanks for you help,

ramming speed to all

general counsel

[Emoram]

Another question could be if Brown is gone what would be the Rams chances of getting Adam Terry in the second?

I think if Brown is gone then a DB in round 1 and Terry in 2 may be better value than Barnes in 1 and a DB in 2. It all depends on what DBs are there when it comes to #19. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Rams trade up a couple of places if it looks like Brown and the "elite" DBs will be gone at their pick.

GC, sorry I didn't answer your question and piled on more questions.

[Nick]

This is my take on things.

Brown is the more proven commodity in terms of on the field play, whereas Barnes hasn't performed as consistently on the field, but is a better overall athlete. I'd prefer results on the field, so I'm more of a fan of Brown at this point. I think Barnes could be had later in the first round or top of the second.

If Brown is gone, I'd rather us look at best available DBs before taking Barnes. If guys like Carlos Rodgers, Justin Miller, and Brodney Pool are on the board, I'd rather take one of them than Barnes. I doubt we could grab Terry in the second round, but someone like Marcus Johnson, Wesley Britt, or Michael Munoz should definitely be available.

[general counsel]

Nick, barnes aside, are those other tackles a better option in 2005 than scott tercero in your view.

general counsel

[Nick]

Immediately, probably not all of them because of the time it would take to learn our offense. Guys like Brown and Barnes might be able to overcome some of that based on talent alone, but while this class has good depth at tackle, I'm not convinced a guy like Britt or Munoz could start right away. Starting Brown right away would still be risky, but he's a very talented player, so I wouldn't be exceptionally worried. I view Scott Tercero as more of a guard, so in the long run, I think the names mentioned would be better long term answers.

[MauiRam]

I'm not Nick, but I will throw in my two cents anyway. If it came to a choice between Brown and Barnes, I agree with Nick for the same reason--I would rather have a proven player at the collegiate level than athletic potential. However, if it came down to a choice between say Jammal Brown and Thomas Davis I would hope the pick would be Davis. Here's why: no question we need help at RT, but after the June 1st cuts I think the Rams could find veteran help at a reasonable price to help out the O-line. As things stand now we are really shaky at the safety position. As much as I like Pisa, it would be foolish to assume that he can make the transition to safety. Arch may not be able to overcome his back troubles and frankly may be only one hit away from IR or worse; also even if his back is seemingly ok after camp, the question whether he can handle coverage duties at the FS looms large.
Davis or Pool in round one would be my preference, Matt Jones in round two,(I am sure I'll take some hits for this one)
Chris "road grader" Keomotu, with our 1st pick in the third, and Adrian Mcpherson with our second pick in the third. would start things nicely... :tongue:

[ramsfan1975]

honstly i would like us to spend 2-3 of our first day picks on oline this year. we need to get some new blood on the line and let the vets who are there teach the new guys , stop hopeing for the miracle free agent to fill the whole and stop usin them as stop gaps. get someone for the long haul. if we spent all our picks this year on offensive line, db, safety and possibly a running back id be happy...id say tight end but to be honest i doubt martz will draft one outside the 5-7th rounds...

[ramstiles]

a few people are saying wait for june 1 cuts for the O line but who are they expecting to be cut that would be a good fit for us

[ZigZagRam]

The more I think about it, the more I'd rather take Brodney Pool than Khalif Barnes. If we took Pool, I'd like to snatch up Ray Willis, who comes from Florida St. playing on the same offensive line as Alex Barron. I think Ray Willis could move into the starting lineup, but me might want to sign somebody like Scott Gragg to play outside for next year, in case Willis can't handle it that soon.

I'd love our depth then.

Ideal Starters for 2005: Pace - Saipaia - McCollum - Timmerman - Gragg
Backups: Tercero, Turner, G.Williams, Willis, Alford

Starters for the future: Pace - Saipaia - Turner - Tercero - Willis

[ramhard]

Not sure why Barnes is considered a less proven commodity except that he had the wrist injury this year but he had started 37 games going into his senior season so has started 40+ games overall... that is plenty of tape to judge whether he has 'it' or not.

Below are scouting reports on Barnes/Brown.. amazing how similar:


K. Barnes
Strengths: Amazing athletic ability for the position and a man his size...Shows great footwork...Very quick and agile...Has long arms...Very experienced and a team leader...Still possesses a lot of upside.
Weaknesses: Not a dominator in the running game...Plays too high at times...Can still get bigger and stronger...Not very powerful at the point of attack.
Notes: Former defensive tackle who will definately be a workout warrior...You can bet some team will take a chance on someone with this guys physical tools and potential early in the draft.


J. Brown

Strengths: Is very athletic...Has long arms...Agile with quick feet and moves well...Does an excellent job in pass protection...Has a lot of experience...May be able to play left tackle in the pros...Can still improve.
Weaknesses: Not as big or strong as you would like...Not a dominator in the running game...Not all that tough or physical...Lacks a killer instinct and doesn't finish his blocks...Needs to show a better work ethic.
Notes: Won the Outland Trophy as a senior...The best player on one of the best offensive lines in the nation...May be the best all around tackle in the draft but doesn't have the upside that Alex Barron does...Could come off the board early with tackle being such an in-demand position.

[Nick]

Not sure why Barnes is considered a less proven commodity

Because I don't think he's been as consistently good through his career as Brown. Less proven doesn't always equal inexperienced, just not proven.

[psycho9985]

We're so close to the draft that I'm content sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for it to all unfold.

[rampete]

this thread got me thinking...are jammal brown and khalif barnes head and shoulders above the next 3 or 4 prospects?

Khalif Barnes 6-6, 305 4.85 Washington
Jammal Brown 6-5, 312 5.25 Oklahoma

Adam Terry 6-8, 324 5.35 Syracuse
Marcus Johnson 6-6, 320 5.35 Mississippi
Logan Mankins 6-4, 307 5.25 FresnoState
Dan Buenning 6-4, 320 5.40 Wisconsin


if so, then perhaps it can be argued that the rams best chance of obtaining a lineman with the potential to contribute this season may lay best in the two players mentioned above...

but if not, this means that you may be able to pick up an OT in the 2nd rd that may be marginally less skilled than the two 1st rd prospects in brown and barnes, but may even turn out to be just as good or better in the near future...

hmm, what to do...what to do....

personally, i'd like to see the rams go for the best available player in the 1st and in the 2nd...if that player is an OT, then be it....

i see the rams FO allowing tercero, saipaia and a veteran FA in june battle it out in preseason...i can't imagine any rookie lineman starting 16 gms of the regular season....unless his name is Pace, Ogden, Jordan or Jones...

while i'm at it, i don't think groce, garrett nor anderson can adequately provide the solid #3 in the nickel packages...i hope i'm proven wrong about these three current rams...