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  1. #16
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    No, I'm saying that people think we'll draft one because we seem to do it all the time (draft DTs who don't turn out). Its not funny if you have to explain. *sigh*


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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post
    No, I'm saying that people think we'll draft one because we seem to do it all the time (draft DTs who don't turn out). Its not funny if you have to explain. *sigh*
    Oh I don't know, chi......I got a pretty good laugh out of it.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    If we take Dorsey with our selection that would show me the Rams are actually thinking instead of reacting. Watch the Clan react when we do take Dorsey crying that "we don't need another DT". Yes we do. We need a DT about as much as we need a DE, SS, LB, WR, T, G, C.

  4. #19
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    If we take Dorsey with our selection that would show me the Rams are actually thinking instead of reacting. Watch the Clan react when we do take Dorsey crying that "we don't need another DT". Yes we do. We need a DT about as much as we need a DE, SS, LB, WR, T, G, C.
    I disagree, and I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on why we need a DT as much as a DE, WR, etc.

  5. #20
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    I wouldn't be terribly opposed to taking Dorsey provided his injury report checks out. I mean people have been saying he's the best prospect at his position to come along in years. If that's true, I'd consider him on the basis that the difference between his talent level and that of other options was enough to outweigh the difference in need. Based on what I've heard so far, I probably wouldn't take him over Chris Long, but I might take him over the other Long or Ghoulston. I'm not sure since I admittedly haven't seen much footage of any of these guys, but I could see the rationale.

  6. #21
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I disagree, and I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on why we need a DT as much as a DE, WR, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I wouldn't be terribly opposed to taking Dorsey provided his injury report checks out. I mean people have been saying he's the best prospect at his position to come along in years. If that's true, I'd consider him on the basis that the difference between his talent level and that of other options was enough to outweigh the difference in need. Based on what I've heard so far, I probably wouldn't take him over Chris Long, but I might take him over the other Long or Ghoulston. I'm not sure since I admittedly haven't seen much footage of any of these guys, but I could see the rationale.
    I think Goldenfleece summed up the rationale for the selection of Dorsey very well. Particularly when you consider the Wroten factor. I think Wroten will be shown the door if we can't trade him, and his trade value is at this point akin to 3 dead flies.
    Regrettably we do have several positions of glaring need, and regardless of who we take at #2 overall (assuming we keep the pick), we will have to engender astonishing luck to address all our needs in one draft ..

  7. #22
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    I disagree, and I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on why we need a DT as much as a DE, WR, etc.
    I would too...

    Wroten factor. I think Wroten will be shown the door if we can't trade him
    Wroten been a hugh disappointment for sure. Might as well give him one more year, not going to get much for him IMO. I had high hopes. We traded back in the draft and got Wroten and Hill, not working out so far.

  8. #23
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I disagree, and I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on why we need a DT as much as a DE, WR, etc.
    Most teams have three good DT's due to the way teams substitute this position. If the Rams have a chance to get Dorsey, that would really solidify the D line. Or Chris Long too. Either one would really solidify this line. I feel its a win/win situation for the Rams at 2. The Giants used 3 DT's in the Super Bowl. By having a fresh DT in on every play really made that defense stout. I just don't think you can go into any season counting on just 2 DT's.

  9. #24
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I mean people have been saying he's the best prospect at his position to come along in years. If that's true, I'd consider him on the basis that the difference between his talent level and that of other options was enough to outweigh the difference in need.
    But what if you're not convinced? Dorsey's certainly a great prospect, but some scouts have Sedrick Ellis close in the rankings. Some even have Ellis ahead. It's hard to make a case that you're the best DT in years when you've got another DT this year right on your heels in the rankings, is it not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    I think Goldenfleece summed up the rationale for the selection of Dorsey very well. Particularly when you consider the Wroten factor. I think Wroten will be shown the door if we can't trade him, and his trade value is at this point akin to 3 dead flies.
    I really don't see what one has to do with the other. Wroten is a depth player. If we need to replace Wroten, we find another depth player. You do'nt replace him by using the second overall pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Most teams have three good DT's due to the way teams substitute this position.
    Which teams? I think if you examined the personnel of many 4-3 teams in this league, you'd be hard pressed to find a team with three good defensive tackles. Some teams have none, a number have one or sometimes two. I don't think you'd find that "most teams" have three of them.

    Besides, no one is arguing that we shouldn't have a good rotation. The thing is, we already have a solid rotation. You have a nose tackle in Ryan, a three technique in Carriker, and depth behind them in Glover and Wroten. On passing downs, you can shift Carriker over for Ryan and Glover in Carriker's spot. If you want to add to that, add a rotational player behind the two starters.

    If you draft Dorsey, who gets pushed out of the picture? Ryan? Then Carriker moves back to the nose, where he isn't as well suited? Both Dorsey and Carriker can play the nose, but both are better fits for the three-technique. Drafting Dorsey means shifting someone where they aren't as well suited.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    The Giants used 3 DT's in the Super Bowl.
    Not entirely accurate, as Tuck is an end who shifts inside on occasion and neither of the other DTs are superstars. The Giants example kind of defeats the purpose of arguing for Dorsey at second overall, since none of the interior players the Giants depended on were first round picks (Cofield in the 4th, Tuck in the 3rd as an end, Robbins as a free agent).

  10. #25
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    But what if you're not convinced? Dorsey's certainly a great prospect, but some scouts have Sedrick Ellis close in the rankings. Some even have Ellis ahead. It's hard to make a case that you're the best DT in years when you've got another DT this year right on your heels in the rankings, is it not?
    The whole idea of selecting him is predicated on his being a superb prospect. I am not claiming that he is, however, if the Rams perceive him to be a once in a decade or more player then I would agree wholeheartedly with his selection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I really don't see what one has to do with the other. Wroten is a depth player. If we need to replace Wroten, we find another depth player. You do'nt replace him by using the second overall pick.
    I am not talking about replacing Wroten, although he likely will be gone along with Byrd. Rather I am talking about acting on the opportunity to add an outstanding player to our team .. possibly the best overall player in the entire 2008 draft. Mind you I am not saying he is, I'll leave that up to the Rams braintrust.

    One other thing that deserves mention is that if Bill Parcells perceives Dorsey tto be a Warren Sapp type stud, Glen could end up in Miami - nevermind the fit. Not many teams would have turned down Warren Sapp if they knew how well he was going to turn out.

  11. #26
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    The whole idea of selecting him is predicated on his being a superb prospect. I am not claiming that he is, however, if the Rams perceive him to be a once in a decade or more player then I would agree wholeheartedly with his selection.
    He is a superb prospect, but I simply have a hard time buying into the hype about him being one of the best in years when he has someone in this class nipping at his heels for the top DT ranking.

    And I'm not trying to argue that he'd be a horrible pick, either. I just think there are other picks that would be a better match of both value and need, especially since we've finally found what looks like a young capable combo at DT.

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    I am not talking about replacing Wroten
    So then why bring him up? I still don't understand how Wroten factors into the Dorsey equation. He's a back-up player who has done relatively nothing. So how does him possibly leaving affect the Dorsey debate?

  12. #27
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    So then why bring him up? I still don't understand how Wroten factors into the Dorsey equation. He's a back-up player who has done relatively nothing. So how does him possibly leaving affect the Dorsey debate?
    It isn't a major factor, just pointing out there will be an opening created. You pointed out much earlier that we could sign a vet to replace Wroten, and that is certainly a viable option. The central point for me is not about "replacing," rather it is about adding an incredible talent.

    I certainly can respect the fact that you don't regard him as "special", but merely another good prospect. If the Rams FO and coachhing staff share your view of him, we'll likely not draft him ..

  13. #28
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    It isn't a major factor, just pointing out there will be an opening created.
    Yes, and I'm just pointing out that the opening would be for a back-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    The central point for me is not about "replacing," rather it is about adding an incredible talent.
    But the reality is that someone is going to be out of the starting line-up. The obvious answer is Ryan, which normally would be fine. Except just doing that doesn't solve the problem either. Because either Carriker or Dorsey will have to shift to the nose, and both are better suited for the UT spot.

    So you're left benching a promising young guy in Ryan and playing someone else out of their best position. All this for an incredible talent at a position that isn't really that big of a need to begin with and who could be saddled with long term injury issues.

    Which is why I see there being a couple of better options on the table.

  14. #29
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    But what if you're not convinced? Dorsey's certainly a great prospect, but some scouts have Sedrick Ellis close in the rankings. Some even have Ellis ahead. It's hard to make a case that you're the best DT in years when you've got another DT this year right on your heels in the rankings, is it not?
    If you're not convinced about Dorsey then you probably wouldn't draft him. Picking this early, we want to make sure we get the kind of prospect that we wouldn't be able to get another year. If we did take Dorsey, Carriker would probably move back over to defensive end.

    Basically, my argument for it would hinge on several premises that may or may not be true:


    (1) The need to improve the defensive line is greater than the need to improve the offensive tackle position.
    (2) Dorsey is not only a better defensive tackle prospect than Carriker, but the kind of defensive tackle prospect that isn't even available most years.
    (3) The difference in ability between Dorsey and Carriker at defensive tackle exceeds the difference between the best defensive end in the draft and Carriker (if he were to move back to end).

    IF these premises are true, then the net gain by drafting Dorsey would exceed the gain of taking someone like Vernon Ghoulston or Sedrick Ellis. And addressing the defensive line in general would be better than drafting Jake Long unless his talent at his position overwhelmed the need disparity (as we're arguing would be the case for Dorsey). If not, then I believe you would be right in thinking that there are better options.
    Last edited by Goldenfleece; -03-08-2008 at 11:17 PM.

  15. #30
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    Re: Carriker and the upcoming draft ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    If we did take Dorsey, Carriker would probably move back over to defensive end.
    Where he'd be adequate but never great because he doesn't have the explosion or the quickness to be an effective pass rusher from the edge.

    I'd much rather move Carriker back to nose tackle rather than move him outside, but he's best suited as a three technique tackle... exactly where Dorsey would play if we drafted him, especially after Dorsey came in under 300 pounds at the combine.

    Ultimately drafting Dorsey gives us two guys at one spot (four if you count Glover and Wroten). So someone has to move to a spot they're less suited for. This is the crux of the debate, IMO. If we didn't have to move anyone, it'd be a relative no-brainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    (1) The need to improve the defensive line is greater than the need to improve the offensive tackle position.
    The problem is your claim is broad when it comes to the defensive line but specific in terms of the offensive line (OT), so let's be specific with both.

    Is the need to improve at DE greater than the need to improve at OT? I would say yes, because we don't have a starter at LDE and Little is aging. We need someone not only capable of making an immediate impact, but also someone for the long haul.

    But is the need to improve at DT greater than the need to improve at OT? I would say no, because we just spent three draft picks on DTs last year and two of them look like promising young starters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    (2) Dorsey is not only a better defensive tackle prospect than Carriker, but the kind of defensive tackle prospect that isn't even available most years.
    You're right on the first point; I'm not convinced about the second.

    But even with Dorsey being a better prospect than Carriker, the point is we already have Carriker. It's not as if we're choosing between the two - we already have one. So do you go back and draft a guy at the same position as your last first round pick because he's a better prospect?

    Change the position and ask the same question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    (3) The difference in ability between Dorsey and Carriker at defensive tackle exceeds the difference between the best defensive end in the draft and Carriker (if he were to move back to end).
    This one I don't agree with. I really don't think Carriker brings enough pass rush ability and production to be an effective 4-3 defensive end. He's a capable, every down defender as a defensive tackle. As a defensive end, he's a situational guy because you're going to at times need to sub in someone with more speed to challenge the edge.

    So I think the difference between a guy like Chris Long or Vernon Gholston and Adam Carriker as a DE is pretty significant, moreso than the difference between Dorsey and Carriker as UT.

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