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Thread: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Maybe. But also maybe, they can sign Bartell to an extension and lessen the cap hit. Also, it may be a moot point if Bartell isn't healthy (it's been my contention all along that Bartell has played his last game already). But if both are healthy, it would be in the Rams best interest to find a way to keep Bartell. Especially considering Williams blitz happy defense. That will require single coverage corners, and in that regard, I don't know that Finnegan is much of an upgrade over Bartell.
    Sign a player coming off of a serious neck injury to a contract extension? I hear the Indianapolis Colts give their stamp of approval!

    Kidding aside, if Bartell is healthy, it'd be great to have both. The question is whether the finances will allow it to happen. Who knows, maybe they will and his salary isn't a concern. Even if it is, I'd like to think even a one-year extension and conversion of his current salary to a bonus over those two years could allow it to happen, but we just don't have the full information the Rams will be working with, so it's tough to say.

    Plus, I don't think we should underestimate a coach's preference for "his guys." It's possible that Fisher simply doesn't think Bartell is worth $6+ million for one year, especially coming off of the surgery, and doesn't make the attempt to keep him. Remember, we're not that far removed from Spagnuolo's Rams getting rid of Atogwe completely rather than finding a way to keep him around.

    One important factor to keep in mind is that, if the Rams truly are interested in Finnegan, they'll have to move on him before they'll be able to see Bartell on the field again. That could work against Ron.
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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Nick, that last point of yours is actually untrue. We heard reports saying that Bartell was actually ready to play again(in his words, I believe) before the end of the regular season. But obviously he couldn't because of being on IR and all.

    However, because he was on IR, Bartell is given special permission to do rehab in the Rams facilities, and you can't tell me that there isn't a way that his "rehab," can't be made into doing DB skills out on the rug. So Fisher should be able to see exactly what Bartell can do currently with no issue.
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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    Nick, that last point of yours is actually untrue. We heard reports saying that Bartell was actually ready to play again(in his words, I believe) before the end of the regular season. But obviously he couldn't because of being on IR and all.

    However, because he was on IR, Bartell is given special permission to do rehab in the Rams facilities, and you can't tell me that there isn't a way that his "rehab," can't be made into doing DB skills out on the rug. So Fisher should be able to see exactly what Bartell can do currently with no issue.
    Bartell is ready to go right now. Fit and healthy.

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    Nick, that last point of yours is actually untrue. We heard reports saying that Bartell was actually ready to play again(in his words, I believe) before the end of the regular season. But obviously he couldn't because of being on IR and all.

    However, because he was on IR, Bartell is given special permission to do rehab in the Rams facilities, and you can't tell me that there isn't a way that his "rehab," can't be made into doing DB skills out on the rug. So Fisher should be able to see exactly what Bartell can do currently with no issue.
    By "on the field," I was referring to an actual NFL game. Fisher and company won't get to see Bartell post-injury in an actual NFL game prior to having to make a decision on pursuing Finnegan, which is true. I apologize if the phrasing wasn't as clear as it should have been.
    Last edited by Nick; -02-11-2012 at 11:03 AM.

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Plus, I don't think we should underestimate a coach's preference for "his guys." It's possible that Fisher simply doesn't think Bartell is worth $6+ million for one year, especially coming off of the surgery, and doesn't make the attempt to keep him. Remember, we're not that far removed from Spagnuolo's Rams getting rid of Atogwe completely rather than finding a way to keep him around.
    Valid points, all.

    But any studied analysis of Bartell's 2010 season shows him to have been one of the best CBs in the league. IF heatlhy, I would hate for Bartell to repeat that season for some other team.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    27 year old All Pro corner > 30 year old good corner coming off fractured neck.
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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by THOLTFAN81 View Post
    27 year old All Pro corner > 30 year old good corner coming off fractured neck.
    Y'know THolt, your perception of many players and coaches seem to base off of media hype and fan popularity... That ain't healthy bro.

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by THOLTFAN81 View Post
    27 year old All Pro corner > 30 year old good corner coming off fractured neck.
    By what metric? Your use of awards bestowed upon this mystery 27 year old (and I say mystery, because I thought this thread was about Cortland Finnegan, who is 28), while a fact, does not actually say anything concrete about his abilities in doing his job. As a subjective vote, the AP All-Pro team, which I assume is what you are referencing, since there are many All-Pro teams, is frequently a popularity contest as opposed to an award based purely on merit and skill.

    For example, to stay on topic, let's examine Finnegan's 2008, when he was bestowed with All-Pro honors. He had 17 passes defensed and had 5 interceptions, as well as 1 sack. To compare, Darrelle Revis, in his second season for the Jets had 16 passes defensed, 5 interceptions, 1 sack, and a forced fumble. One might say that Revis should have been the All-Pro instead of Finnegan, given that he created more turnovers. As a second comparison, let's look at the 2008 of Bartell. He had 19 passed defensed, 3 interceptions, a sack and 2 forced fumbles. One might say that Bartell deserved to be an All-Pro above Finnegan, as he had broken up more passes than Finnegan and had the same number of total turnovers forced.

    So, I return to my question. By what metric are we using to determine the superior qualities of cornerbacking? Media based awards, basic statistics, analyzed statistics and charting, game show victories, current ranking on the Madden charts?

    Yes, Bartell(currently 29, btw) is coming off of a neck injury. However, it has been reported back in December that he was fully recovered and was absolutely playing again in 2012. In fact, I do believe that he wanted to go back into the week 1 game because he didn't think the injury was more than just a stinger. The dude is tough, and actually, in terms of NFL games, he's younger than Finnegan. Bartell has played in 90 games to Finnegan's 93. And I'd also say that his body is almost certainly in better shape, as he's 3 inches taller and has 20 lbs more mass to his body, yet has almost a couple hundred fewer tackles to his name. That's almost 200 less car wrecks that have been placed on Bartell's body.

    Would you care to share your metrics now?
    Last edited by TekeRam; -02-11-2012 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Realized 45 minutes later that I spelled purely "burely". How did I do that?
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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by THOLTFAN81 View Post
    27 year old All Pro corner > 30 year old good corner coming off fractured neck.
    Who are we talking about now? I thought we were talking about Finnegan (who's 28) and Bartell (who's 29).
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    By what metric? Your use of awards bestowed upon this mystery 27 year old (and I say mystery, because I thought this thread was about Cortland Finnegan, who is 28), while a fact, does not actually say anything concrete about his abilities in doing his job. As a subjective vote, the AP All-Pro team, which I assume is what you are referencing, since there are many All-Pro teams, is frequently a popularity contest as opposed to an award based purely on merit and skill.

    For example, to stay on topic, let's examine Finnegan's 2008, when he was bestowed with All-Pro honors. He had 17 passes defensed and had 5 interceptions, as well as 1 sack. To compare, Darrelle Revis, in his second season for the Jets had 16 passes defensed, 5 interceptions, 1 sack, and a forced fumble. One might say that Revis should have been the All-Pro instead of Finnegan, given that he created more turnovers. As a second comparison, let's look at the 2008 of Bartell. He had 19 passed defensed, 3 interceptions, a sack and 2 forced fumbles. One might say that Bartell deserved to be an All-Pro above Finnegan, as he had broken up more passes than Finnegan and had the same number of total turnovers forced.

    So, I return to my question. By what metric are we using to determine the superior qualities of cornerbacking? Media based awards, basic statistics, analyzed statistics and charting, game show victories, current ranking on the Madden charts?

    Yes, Bartell(currently 29, btw) is coming off of a neck injury. However, it has been reported back in December that he was fully recovered and was absolutely playing again in 2012. In fact, I do believe that he wanted to go back into the week 1 game because he didn't think the injury was more than just a stinger. The dude is tough, and actually, in terms of NFL games, he's younger than Finnegan. Bartell has played in 90 games to Finnegan's 93. And I'd also say that his body is almost certainly in better shape, as he's 3 inches taller and has 20 lbs more mass to his body, yet has almost a couple hundred fewer tackles to his name. That's almost 200 less car wrecks that have been placed on Bartell's body.

    Would you care to share your metrics now?
    None of you're perfectly in-depth statistics matter, its all about madden rating!

    All kidding aside, thank you for proving mine, yours, and Hub's point. Bartell is severely underrated. For years I've easily considered him a #1 CB, and a top 10 or top 15 CB in the NFL. People will continue to bash him because he dropped a few INT's 2 years ago, because if the CB doesn't have 10 INT's in a year, and isn't rated 90+ on Madden, he's no good.

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Who are we talking about now? I thought we were talking about Finnegan (who's 28) and Bartell (who's 29).
    My bad on Finnegans age, but Bartell will be 30 by the start of the 2012 season. His birthday is 10 days away.

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    None of you're perfectly in-depth statistics matter, its all about madden rating!

    All kidding aside, thank you for proving mine, yours, and Hub's point. Bartell is severely underrated. For years I've easily considered him a #1 CB, and a top 10 or top 15 CB in the NFL. People will continue to bash him because he dropped a few INT's 2 years ago, because if the CB doesn't have 10 INT's in a year, and isn't rated 90+ on Madden, he's no good.
    Cute...the guy who changes his opinion on every prospect, coach, etc. on a dime is taking a shot at me investing in 'madden ratings'

    At least I stick to my guns on players, and I own the dish brother... Watch football every Sunday. I enjoy watching Finnegan play. To think i base my judgements on Madden is comical. I can run you under the table with football knowledge. Besides, show me any instance in this thread where I have described Bartell as 'no good.' It is just my OPINION that Finnegan is better. In fact, my first post I stated I would ideally love to have both but if it came down to one or the other I'd rather have Finnegan. So read before you talk.

    Btw, why are you posting in this thread? Don't you have the other thread to monitor where the CFL player had a medical condition and you predicted the future?
    Last edited by THOLTFAN81; -02-12-2012 at 04:01 AM.

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Double post
    Last edited by THOLTFAN81; -02-12-2012 at 03:51 AM.

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    By what metric? Your use of awards bestowed upon this mystery 27 year old (and I say mystery, because I thought this thread was about Cortland Finnegan, who is 28), while a fact, does not actually say anything concrete about his abilities in doing his job. As a subjective vote, the AP All-Pro team, which I assume is what you are referencing, since there are many All-Pro teams, is frequently a popularity contest as opposed to an award based purely on merit and skill.

    For example, to stay on topic, let's examine Finnegan's 2008, when he was bestowed with All-Pro honors. He had 17 passes defensed and had 5 interceptions, as well as 1 sack. To compare, Darrelle Revis, in his second season for the Jets had 16 passes defensed, 5 interceptions, 1 sack, and a forced fumble. One might say that Revis should have been the All-Pro instead of Finnegan, given that he created more turnovers. As a second comparison, let's look at the 2008 of Bartell. He had 19 passed defensed, 3 interceptions, a sack and 2 forced fumbles. One might say that Bartell deserved to be an All-Pro above Finnegan, as he had broken up more passes than Finnegan and had the same number of total turnovers forced.

    So, I return to my question. By what metric are we using to determine the superior qualities of cornerbacking? Media based awards, basic statistics, analyzed statistics and charting, game show victories, current ranking on the Madden charts?

    Yes, Bartell(currently 29, btw) is coming off of a neck injury. However, it has been reported back in December that he was fully recovered and was absolutely playing again in 2012. In fact, I do believe that he wanted to go back into the week 1 game because he didn't think the injury was more than just a stinger. The dude is tough, and actually, in terms of NFL games, he's younger than Finnegan. Bartell has played in 90 games to Finnegan's 93. And I'd also say that his body is almost certainly in better shape, as he's 3 inches taller and has 20 lbs more mass to his body, yet has almost a couple hundred fewer tackles to his name. That's almost 200 less car wrecks that have been placed on Bartell's body.

    Would you care to share your metrics now?
    I dont think you can bash the guy for basing his opinion on awards and all pro votings when you are basing your opinion completely on statistics. "Stats dont tell the whole story" is the oldest line in the book. I'm as big a fan of Bartell as anybody but I'd like to see how great his stats are compared to Finnegan's if he had to cover Andre Johnson and Reggie Wayne twice a year.

    I'm with Hub and anybody else that would prefer to have them both around. But if I had to pick one or the other, I'm taking the younger guy with all the awards and without the injury concerns.

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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    By what metric?
    Well then, let's move the conversation along and add some metrics.

    For the sole purpose of providing some information that might move the conversation along, consider that Ron Bartell's average ranking by Pro Football Focus based on their cumulative rating at the position from 2008 to 2010 was 62nd. Finnegan's over the same span was 56th.

    Looking just at that window gives Bartell an advantage, because it's cutting out Finnegan's 2011 season where he ranked 3rd of all CBs. Since 2008, Bartell has never finished among the Top 20 in CBs when ranked by cumulative CB rating. Finnegan has... twice. In two of those three seasons, Finnegan ranked higher than Bartell based solely on coverage ranking as well.

    One other point to be thrown in the ring of this discussion has nothing to do with numbers or awards, but demand. In the discussions about Finnegan, it's usually referenced that he's going to cost a lot on the free market due to the demand. We'll have to see if that actually plays out. But I'd point out that when Ron Bartell hit the open market after a 2008 season that you claim may have been deserving of All-Pro consideration, the only other team besides the Rams that was interested was the Saints, who low-balled him.

    Now, I'm not trying to come in here and bash Bartell. I think he's a very good player. Not the uber-elite player some Rams fans make him out to be, but definitely good and worthy of being discussed as a Top 20 corner in this league. Having said that, he's (1) turning 30 years old soon, (2) making $6.2 million in salary next season, (3) is coming off of a serious neck injury that, while healthy, could affect his play, and perhaps most importantly (4) does not have connections to the current regime. Compare that to Finnegan, who is (1) younger, (2) arguably just as talented if not moreso, (3) healthier, and (4) has connections to the new coaching staff and has succeeded in their system.

    To me, it looks as if the writing may be on the wall, but as I said earlier, I hope they find a way to keep both of them if Bartell is healthy and ready to return to form. I just don't know if it's financially viable for the team. Depends on too many factors, at this point. One of them being that we're all assuming Finnegan makes his way here. Who knows, maybe someone else gets him. Then the entire discussion is moot.
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    Re: Evan Silva: Rams will be in on Finnegan

    Quote Originally Posted by THOLTFAN81 View Post
    27 year old All Pro corner > 30 year old good corner coming off fractured neck.
    True, but if the money is right, 27 year old All Pro Corner + 30 year old good corner coming off fractured neck > choosing one or the other.

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