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  1. #136
    PeoriaRam's Avatar
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    Saying "the debate is over" because he isn't the most accurate, doesn't go through reads perfectly, and doesn't make perfect decisions is silly. That isn't the player he is. He is *exciting*. Weird? The Rams, exciting, what?

    I can't sit through another season of Bulger/Boller/Null. Give me a QB who ducks Berry and scrambles for 20 yards. For god's sake, why is everyone protesting this guy - if you're against him morally I understand, but HOW can you be against someone when we're freaking 1-15? WE CANT GET WORSE.
    And I can't believe that after three years of seeing that sentiment be uttered time and again, only to be disproven by this organization on a weekly basis, that it is still uttered.

    It can always get worse. We could go winless. We could lose by 30 every week. We could get a QB or another player killed. Jackson's knee could explode into tiny particles. An earthquake could level the stadium. An earthquake could level the entire city except for the stadium.

    From a more practical standpoint, Vick ran for more than 20 yards once last year. And he lacks the speed and agility to duck Berry. So if you want a QB who can, I suggest looking elsewhere.


  2. #137
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    From a more practical standpoint, Vick ran for more than 20 yards once last year. And he lacks the speed and agility to duck Berry. So if you want a QB who can, I suggest looking elsewhere.
    And averaged a mere 2.65 yards per carry on the rest of them.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  3. #138
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    Saying "the debate is over" because he isn't the most accurate, doesn't go through reads perfectly, and doesn't make perfect decisions is silly. That isn't the player he is.
    You're exactly right. Vick is not the kind of QB that is accurate, reads his progressions, or make good decisions. And THAT is why the Rams fans should not be looking at this guy as bringing the team back from the dead.
    Give me a QB who ducks Berry and scrambles for 20 yards.
    Then you're going to want someone other than Vick. As Peoria has pointed out, he only managed a scramble of 20+ yards once last year.
    For god's sake, why is everyone protesting this guy - if you're against him morally I understand, but HOW can you be against someone when we're freaking 1-15? WE CANT GET WORSE.
    For the millionth and one times, it has nothing to do with the dogfighting fiasco; the flat truth is Vick was, is, and will continue to be an overhyped RB pretending to be a QB. His QB skills have never shown improvement, and at the age of 30, his RB skills are not going to get any better.

    So again, everyone make sure to get this:

    Reasons against Vick.....dog-fight? NO
    Bad QB? YES
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #139
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    First off, we don't know what the eagles would've done, so let's not pretend here.

    As for drafting Kolb, it made sense because McNabb, who is not getting any younger, was coming off two consecutive seasons where he missed multiple games due to injury. One year it even took Jeff Garcia to get them to the playoffs. So obviously, to stand pat under those circumstances would've been foolish on their part.
    No one's pretending. Just speculating based off of what makes sense and what's logical. If McNabb's ego is so fragile that simply putting the ball in Vick's hands more than 2-3 times a game would be a disaster, why even risk upsetting him by bringing Vick in in the first place?

    Vick advocates are painting McNabb as if he has absolutely no confidence or is completely insecure. Whether that's the case or not, does anyone really think the Eagles are more worried about McNabb's ego than they are winning a championship? Really?! If they were, I doubt they spend a second round pick on a QB. But they did, because of the reasons you mentioned. Reasons that demonstrate the welfare and future success of their team is a larger priority than the feelings of their QB.

    Which is why it doesn't make sense to me that the Eagles, facing elimination in the playoffs, wouldn't at least give a player many are asserting to be a "proven winner" more opportunities on the field. No one's suggesting they should have benched McNabb, but with a twenty point deficit after halftime and the Eagles' only touchdown coming off of a Vick pass, if Vick really is a proven winner as some here claim, how does he only get one more opportunity in the final half of the game? The "McNabb's ego" comment just doesn't hold much water to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Secondly, why wouldn't McNabb be supportive of the move to bring in Vick? If he's not, he only exposes himself to what many already believe about his ego.
    I apologize as my initial phrasing was not entirely correct. McNabb didn't just support Vick's signing; he lobbied for him joining the team. Have a look at the video below, which was a post-game press conference after the Eagles' first pre-season game when the Vick signing was fresh in the news. At the 2:54 mark, McNabb says he lobbied for Vick to Andy Reid.

    YouTube - Donovan McNabb Interview About Michael Vick
    If McNabb had simply played the good soldier and just said that he'd support Vick now that he was a teammate, it'd be one thing. But it's a bit different to actually lobby for the guy to join your team. Furthermore, I think there's an earlier part of the post-game interview, around the 2:20 mark, that's interesting to this discussion as well. Speaking about Vick and not just being a Wildcat guy, McNabb said, "That's what you want to do with great players. You want to somehow put the ball in their hands and give them opporuntity to make plays for you." Which the Eagles didn't when their playoff hopes were slipping through their fingers in the Wild Card round, and which is why that's caused some to question whether or not the Eagles viewed Vick as the kind of player many fans claim he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Thirdly, I'm sure you've heard the term, "we're going with what got us here". It's a term that the majority of coaches use when asked what approach they'll take as it relates to personel, entering a playoff game. And what got them there was McNabb.

    For Reid to change his philosophy in the middle of a playoff game is truly what would've been unfathomable. He's no different than most sucessful coaches, so why is this so unbelievable?

    If there was going to be a significant change, I suspect it would've happened in the weeks prior to the post-season. But again, just because it didn't, doesn't automatically mean that Michael Vick had any less ability or somehow he's simply not good enough to play. All coaches go with what they feel comfortable with, it's as simple as that. Like it or not, McNabb has by far led the Eagles to and won more playoff games than any QB in their history. So maybe, just maybe, that has something to do with the fact that they didn't turn to Vick or Kolb.
    Those are fair points, though I don't think the "change in philsophy" I'm suggesting would be as extreme as you make it sound. Again, no one's saying you bench McNabb or do something drastic. The question is simply why didn't Vick, who by halftime had been part of the Eagles' only touchdown in the first half, get more than one opportunity in the second half? Especially if, as some here claim, he is a "proven winner?"

    And towards the end of the regular season, prior to his injury, Vick was slowly getting some more opportunities. In his final two games before getting hurt (against the Falcons and Giants), Vick had the ball in his hands more than he did in any other two-game span during the season. So I don't think Vick getting more opportunities in the playoffs would represent a drastic philosophical shift.

    You're right in that it doesn't "automatically" mean that Vick doesn't have it anymore (not sure anyone suggested it automatically meant one thing, by the way), but when you have a significant portion of his advocates claiming he's a winner and then said winner is barely used in a game that his team needs to win in order to remain in the championship hunt, I think it certainly opens up questions about whether or not the "winner" status is really correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    And fourthly, my arguement only suggests that maybe there's more to Vick not playing much, than your suggestions of a lack of ability.
    There might be, and that's why I've been asking Vick advocates to try and explain it. Thus far, I've simply not heard a very convincing argument to the contrary.
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  5. #140
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Bottomline...whether you think he is a good qb or not...we will know in 3 weeks whether Vick will be a Ram or not.

  6. #141
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by THOLTFAN81 View Post
    Bottomline...whether you think he is a good qb or not...we will know in 3 weeks whether Vick will be a Ram or not.
    And if he is, so be it. If he's brought here to be anything more than a gimmick, my faith in Devaney will be diminished though.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  7. #142
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by THOLTFAN81 View Post
    Bottomline...whether you think he is a good qb or not...we will know in 3 weeks whether Vick will be a Ram or not.
    I will be the first to say, if Devaney does bring him in, my faith will be lessened. But I will support anybody who is playing for the rams until they have proven me otherwise. I still dont think we will get him, nor do I want him. But i will support him until his play goes sour.

  8. #143
    peramoure is offline Registered User
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    This 20 yard stat is so freaking misleading - how many plays did Mike Vick even get per game? Vick was best on the run when it was a spontaneous move, not a designed wildcat punch to the left or right. I know you guys don't like him, I saw someone mentioned that an earthquake could destroy the stadium, Jackson's knee could explode, we could go WINLESS, etc etc.

    And I'm fine with that. Anything is better than this offense I've had to watch for 3 years. God freaking awful. If Vick gives me a better opportunity of running for 5, 6, 7 yards to move the chains, as opposed to Bulger/Boller/Null, then lets rock and roll.

  9. #144
    molar_pistol Guest

    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by THOLTFAN81 View Post
    Bottomline...whether you think he is a good qb or not...we will know in 3 weeks whether Vick will be a Ram or not.
    indeed..even if we draft clausen or bradford, the rams are likely to go after a veteran qb in free agency, whichever one they bring in won't be brought in to be our guy of the future so all of this talk about whether or not vick is an elite qb is kinda pointless, we all know he isn't.

  10. #145
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    This 20 yard stat is so freaking misleading - how many plays did Mike Vick even get per game? Vick was best on the run when it was a spontaneous move, not a designed wildcat punch to the left or right. I know you guys don't like him, I saw someone mentioned that an earthquake could destroy the stadium, Jackson's knee could explode, we could go WINLESS, etc etc.

    And I'm fine with that. Anything is better than this offense I've had to watch for 3 years. God freaking awful. If Vick gives me a better opportunity of running for 5, 6, 7 yards to move the chains, as opposed to Bulger/Boller/Null, then lets rock and roll.
    Vick didn't come close to averaging that last season. With designed plays and a better line, that theoretically should be more successful than improvising a blown play.

    Vick also possessed the advantage last season of not being the only QB a team had to gameplan for, and yet just about everyone he faced was able to contain him. If he played for the Rams, he would lose that advantage, and I can only imagine the outcome would be worse.

    Bottom line-rushing QBs don't do well in today's NFL. Defenders are too fast and can seal off the edge effectively, removing the end run as a viable option. I assume you watched the Super Bowl, correct? End runs were virtual suicide in that game.

  11. #146
    The Optimistic Lamb Guest

    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    I dont know what i think about Vick, but even if he was brought in for just the training camp and cut before the season started that would be worth getting him. AT LEAST the coaches would get a first hand look at the guy. Better that than letting him slip by and go somewhere else and resurrect his previous career.

    I'm in favor of exploring all options.

  12. #147
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    Bottom line-rushing QBs don't do well in today's NFL. Defenders are too fast and can seal off the edge effectively, removing the end run as a viable option. I assume you watched the Super Bowl, correct? End runs were virtual suicide in that game.

    I have also watch the option/WILCAT, that everyoen said couldn't work -- work more than ever in the NFL.
    The truth of the matter is that the NFL changed the game so that its all offense now.

    In the past defenses would crowd the box and pound the RB's and Qb's.
    Now you can't touch the QB and the Defensive Backs can't do anything to a WR.

    Just imagine how many late hit and unneccesary roughness penalties will be on the defense with a running quarterback.
    Alot of intangibles that don't appear in the box score.

  13. #148
    PeoriaRam's Avatar
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    I have also watch the option/WILCAT, that everyoen said couldn't work -- work more than ever in the NFL.
    The truth of the matter is that the NFL changed the game so that its all offense now.

    In the past defenses would crowd the box and pound the RB's and Qb's.
    Now you can't touch the QB and the Defensive Backs can't do anything to a WR.

    Just imagine how many late hit and unneccesary roughness penalties will be on the defense with a running quarterback.
    Alot of intangibles that don't appear in the box score.
    Hi, I understand that the personnel differences between Miami (which is the only team that can and does make a consistent habit of running the offense) and us extends beyond what we have at quarterback, and that those very differences are why Miami can run it and we can't. Do you?

    Again, defenses are faster. Slow-developing running plays to the edge aren't going to be nearly as successful as you think they can be.

  14. #149
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Optimistic Lamb View Post
    I dont know what i think about Vick, but even if he was brought in for just the training camp and cut before the season started that would be worth getting him. AT LEAST the coaches would get a first hand look at the guy. Better that than letting him slip by and go somewhere else and resurrect his previous career.

    I'm in favor of exploring all options.
    I agree with this. I too am ambivalent about Mr. Vick but, at this point, I am also all about competition. I would still rather draft Claussen or Bradford as our long-term solution but why not give Vick a shot to see what he can do?

    Really it wouldn't cost us much and then let the man play himself into or out of the job.

    If he goes elsewhere and resurrects his career we are going to really regret our short-sighted actions.

    WHAT SAY YE?

  15. #150
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    Hi, I understand that the personnel differences between Miami (which is the only team that can and does make a consistent habit of running the offense) and us extends beyond what we have at quarterback, and that those very differences are why Miami can run it and we can't. Do you?

    Again, defenses are faster. Slow-developing running plays to the edge aren't going to be nearly as successful as you think they can be.

    then why did over 16 teams use the wilcat over the last 2 years ???

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