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  1. #166
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    he said he would only go to a team to play as a starter or best opportunity to start., If your watching the Michael Vick Project on BET he said he thought he would be a Ram and it seems like that is his first choice.
    I can say quite truthfully that BET is never on in my house, so I have no way to contextualize what was uttered in a reality TV program.

    Here's a simple question for many of you. Say the Rams had to start Null or Boller in a game against the Bills. Loser of the game is knocked out of the NFL.

    The Bills could start Bulger, Pennington, or Vick. Whoever starts must play the whole game, no sub, or wildcat. Which QB would be most fearful to play against? If you could pick one of the 3 to not play who would it be?
    I'm not quite sure how valid this hypothetical is, since our QB next season is going to be better than Boller or Null. I personally would place Pennington and Bulger in a dead heat and both ahead of Michael Vick in terms of who I fear more.

    I think many forget the fear and ability of Vick to just win the game. He will never be Peyton Manning but I don't think there is any better choice to start our first 6 games of the season.

    Jason Campbell is a 1st and 3rd tender ssays John Clayton -- every other QB hasn't won anything, Vick has.
    What Vick did 4 years ago with much fresher legs and better offensive weapons and pass protection is irrelevant to the present NFL and the Rams as they are currently constituted. Vick "just won" games with his legs. Only a fool counts on 30-year old legs.


  2. #167
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post

    What Vick did 4 years ago with much fresher legs and better offensive weapons and pass protection is irrelevant to the present NFL and the Rams as they are currently constituted. Vick "just won" games with his legs. Only a fool counts on 30-year old legs.

    I don't understand how anyone would want Bulger or Pennington to QB for the Rams next season.

    Bulger's last 2 years were awful and he looks like his career is done.

    Pennington is hurt and could never stretch the field. Anyone who watched the Jets in their prime realize that Pennington in his peak, with a healthy arm is nothing more than an 8-8 QB.

    Neither should be starting anywhere next year. Even if you don't like Vick, neither should be supported.

  3. #168
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    I want Bulger to start compared to the alternatives. I never said he was my wet dream choice, I just think he's better than anything else we could realistically get.

  4. #169
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    I don't understand how anyone would want Bulger or Pennington to QB for the Rams next season.
    I dont understand how anyone would want vick next season.

    Bulger's last 2 years were awful and he looks like his career is done.
    So did warner after he got released by the rams.

    Pennington is hurt and could never stretch the field. Anyone who watched the Jets in their prime realize that Pennington in his peak, with a healthy arm is nothing more than an 8-8 QB.

    Neither should be starting anywhere next year. Even if you don't like Vick, neither should be supported.
    Jets with pennington as QB for most of the season.
    2002 9-7
    2004 10-6
    2006 10-6
    Now i realize he gets hurt often, and im not saying we should bring him in. But there seems to be a few seasons were he was more then a 8-8 QB.

  5. #170
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Varg6 View Post
    Statistically speaking Vick makes his running backs have better years. Look at VY and Johnson. When VY started, his numbers went up. If we can, hypothetically, get a QB who improves our best aspect which is our running attack, why not go for it?
    One, I'd like to see the statistics that demonstrate it was Vick specifically that made his running backs more productive.

    Two, I think you're off a bit on the Young/Johnson example. Vince Young became the Titans starter after their bye week. In the six weeks prior to the Titans' bye and Young's reinsertion into the starting line-up, Chris Johnson averaged nearly a full yard per carry more (6.2 ypc) than he did after the bye (5.36 ypc). Johnson simply had more 100-yard performances after the bye because he had over 10 more carries per game on average.

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    Jason Campbell is a 1st and 3rd tender ssays John Clayton -- every other QB hasn't won anything, Vick has.
    Vick hasn't won a playoff game as a starter since Bulger was in the playoffs. His career winning percentage as a starter is actually very close to Pennington's. Yet you claim neither Bulger nor Pennington should be starting while Vick should.

    I simply don't know who you expect to convince with oversimplified arguments like these clearly based in the past. Do you honestly believe Vick's Pro Bowls from five plus years ago are relevant to the 2010 Rams?
    Last edited by Nick; -02-17-2010 at 01:15 AM.
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  6. #171
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    There was a segment on vicks affect today on nfl network is probally where he got it from. It just how with vy is the picture chris johnson did better. And it so showed how warrick dunns numbers were higher when vick was there. I think vick has a lot to bring to the table I think he is a better qb now and not just a runner. He says he regrets not studying more in atlanta so I think he has the drive we need. Bulger flat out just looks like a deer in headlights under center. If he isn't retiring right now he should. He was past his prime in 07

  7. #172
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by sjacksonrules View Post
    There was a segment on vicks affect today on nfl network is probally where he got it from. It just how with vy is the picture chris johnson did better. And it so showed how warrick dunns numbers were higher when vick was there. I think vick has a lot to bring to the table I think he is a better qb now and not just a runner. He says he regrets not studying more in atlanta so I think he has the drive we need. Bulger flat out just looks like a deer in headlights under center. If he isn't retiring right now he should. He was past his prime in 07
    I guess I'll have to watch NFL Network this morning and hope for a replay of whatever segment it was to see if they have a detailed explanation about this. Because both claims seem to be a bit weak.

    I've already shown how Chris Johnson was actually averaging more yards per carry prior to Young becoming the starter in 2009 than he was after; the reason his post-bye performances look better is because they fed him the ball much more on average.

    As for Dunn and Vick, Dunn's best season in terms of yards per carry average was actually 2003. Dunn played in 11 games that season, and amassed a career high yards per carry average of 5.4 with Doug Johnson and Kurt Kittner behind center. He didn't play during the final four games of the year, which were the only ones Vick started that season.

    In fact, if you look at the numbers for the Dunn/Duckett combo from '02 to '05 when they were together in Atlanta, their best YPC average was also in 2003, the season Vick only started four games. Like Chris Johnson, the reason they amassed more combined yards in 2004 and 2005 probably has a lot more to do with having more carries than anything Vick did. But their average per carry numbers those seasons were slightly worse.

    So yeah, hopefully NFL Network did more than just make the claim and move on. The claim itself doesn't hold much water, but perhaps there's some supporting information that goes along with it that I'm missing.
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  8. #173
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I guess I'll have to watch NFL Network this morning and hope for a replay of whatever segment it was to see if they have a detailed explanation about this. Because both claims seem to be a bit weak.

    I've already shown how Chris Johnson was actually averaging more yards per carry prior to Young becoming the starter in 2009 than he was after; the reason his post-bye performances look better is because they fed him the ball much more on average.

    As for Dunn and Vick, Dunn's best season in terms of yards per carry average was actually 2003. Dunn played in 11 games that season, and amassed a career high yards per carry average of 5.4 with Doug Johnson and Kurt Kittner behind center. He didn't play during the final four games of the year, which were the only ones Vick started that season.

    In fact, if you look at the numbers for the Dunn/Duckett combo from '02 to '05 when they were together in Atlanta, their best YPC average was also in 2003, the season Vick only started four games. Like Chris Johnson, the reason they amassed more combined yards in 2004 and 2005 probably has a lot more to do with having more carries than anything Vick did. But their average per carry numbers those seasons were slightly worse.

    So yeah, hopefully NFL Network did more than just make the claim and move on. The claim itself doesn't hold much water, but perhaps there's some supporting information that goes along with it that I'm missing.
    Actually nick you can just go to nfl.com they have an article about Marc Bulger and a video of the one stated earlier

    They did not just claim and move on they had evidence of the WLB having to freeze up to make sure vick did not have the ball however isn't that the case with every play action pass by any QB?

    But it is worth watching.

    However they are saying the asking price is a 3rd or 4th for Vick that is a definite NO!

    Im still a Vick fan but a mid rounder is out of the question.

  9. #174
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    One, I'd like to see the statistics that demonstrate it was Vick specifically that made his running backs more productive.

    Two, I think you're off a bit on the Young/Johnson example. Vince Young became the Titans starter after their bye week. In the six weeks prior to the Titans' bye and Young's reinsertion into the starting line-up, Chris Johnson averaged nearly a full yard per carry more (6.2 ypc) than he did after the bye (5.36 ypc). Johnson simply had more 100-yard performances after the bye because he had over 10 more carries per game on average.
    I'd post the link but I'm not supposed to. It's on NFL.com, they discuss the whole VY/Vick effect. Essentially it makes defenders focus on two players on a run play (Vick/Jackson) as opposed to just the RB himself. I know Vick's legs aren't what they used to be but there are statistics showing that he's helped improve the running game because of his escape ability(s).


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  10. #175
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by BarronWade View Post
    Actually nick you can just go to nfl.com they have an article about Marc Bulger and a video of the one stated earlier

    They did not just claim and move on they had evidence of the WLB having to freeze up to make sure vick did not have the ball however isn't that the case with every play action pass by any QB?

    But it is worth watching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varg6 View Post
    I'd post the link but I'm not supposed to. It's on NFL.com, they discuss the whole VY/Vick effect. Essentially it makes defenders focus on two players on a run play (Vick/Jackson) as opposed to just the RB himself. I know Vick's legs aren't what they used to be but there are statistics showing that he's helped improve the running game because of his escape ability(s).
    I lost even more respect for the argument by watching the video.

    The argument they use is, as BW said, the WILL linebacker has to freeze and diagnose whether or not the QB has the ball on a play action run. The problem is the WILL linebacker is going to have that responsibility on that play regardless of who the quarterback is. Facing a mobile quarterback may make the bootleg more dangerous, but it's not as if defenses don't protect the back side against play action against numerous other passers who aren't named Michael Vick. It's a weak point at best.

    Secondly, their claims about Chris Johnson center about the difference in his numbers from 2008 to 2009, and that's supposed to show how Young helped Johnson be more effective. Again, it's a weak claim at best. In 2009, Johnson was averaging more yards per carry prior to the bye and prior to Vince Young's insertion into the starting line-up than he was after. The more likely reason Johnson's numbers weren't as great the previous year in 2008 is because (1) he was still splitting carries with LenDale White and (2) he was a rookie. Johnson's averaged 16.7 attempts per game in 2008; that went up to 22.4 in 2009. What a shocker, his numbers went up when he got more carries and had a year in the league under his belt!

    Thirdly, they cite Dunn's drop off in numbers in the 2007 season as some kind of proof of Vick's influence. This is perhaps even weaker than the Johnson claim. Ignoring for a moment the information I provided earlier about Dunn and Duckett's numbers, consider the following.

    In 2006, Dunn was 31 years old and already showing signs of decline. His YPC average dropped over a full yard from the previous season already despite Vick's presence in both season. In 2006, Dunn was in his third year under Jim Mora Jr. as a head coach. Also, the Falcons' offensive line remained relatively stable, as his three most veteran starting linemen (LT Gandy, C McClure, RT Weiner) played full 16 game seasons.

    The following year, in 2007, the Falcons had a new coach in Bobby Petrino (spoiler alert, didn't work out that well). A new head coach brings a different scheme, so there are variables there as well. Dunn was a year older with more mileage on his body, so obviously his numbers will go down. Dunn's offensive line wasn't as stable as it was in 2006; only one lineman started a full season in 2007, and the Falcons had to depend significantly on three linemen with one year's experience in the league or less (RG/RT Clabo, LT Ojinnaka, LG Blalock).

    So which makes more sense - that Dunn's numbers declined because he was older, running behind a less stable line, and playing under a new staff, or that Dunn's numbers declined simply because Michael Vick wasn't on the field with him? The NFL Network video reeks of someone who already had their conclusion decided and then cherry picked data to try and support that conclusion, knowing their TV/web audience couldn't directly challenge them and hoping they wouldn't take a closer look at the actual circumstances.
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  11. #176
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I've already shown how Chris Johnson was actually averaging more yards per carry prior to Young becoming the starter in 2009 than he was after; the reason his post-bye performances look better is because they fed him the ball much more on average.

    Who cares about this -- Vince Young turned the Titans into a Playoff caliber team. If Vince started from game 1 they may have gotten in.

    The titans looked like they were off to a 4 win season.

  12. #177
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    It's too bad Philly didn't see fit to utilize Vick more in 2009 because at this point, he is a virtual unknown quantity. All the stats and evaluations based on what he did 4, 5 or 6 years ago when he was a starter in Atlanta, are meaningless now.

  13. #178
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    Who cares about this -- Vince Young turned the Titans into a Playoff caliber team. If Vince started from game 1 they may have gotten in.

    The titans looked like they were off to a 4 win season.
    What is left unsaid here is that with Kerry Collins at the helm in 2008 they were the #1 seed in the AFC Playoffs. That team had talent prior to Young sliding in, but a lot of bad luck to start 2009.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varg6 View Post
    I'd post the link but I'm not supposed to. It's on NFL.com, they discuss the whole VY/Vick effect. Essentially it makes defenders focus on two players on a run play (Vick/Jackson) as opposed to just the RB himself. I know Vick's legs aren't what they used to be but there are statistics showing that he's helped improve the running game because of his escape ability(s).
    So why don't we simply lock down on a second good running back with younger legs and use that?

  14. #179
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    Who cares about this
    Perhaps the person that made the initial claim that Vick and Young somehow made their RBs better? I wasn't making this argument up myself, I was responding to a claim and showing why it wasn't correct.

    Though it's interesting that responses to detailed analysis in this thread has apparently regressed to, "Who cares?!"
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  15. #180
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    I look at the Vick situation this way:

    1. We aren't going to win next year either.
    2. We may in 2012....2011 will be a lockout.
    3. If it's only for one year, and the Rams aren't going to win in that year....what's the harm in allowing Vick to be the buffer to the new QB?

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