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  1. #106
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    you argue against Vick like he has never done anything well.
    Not true. At one time, he was the fastest QB on the field.
    He is a 3 time pro-bowler
    So is Culpepper.....wanna bring him in?
    #1 Overall Pick in the NFL draft
    You mean like Tim Couch, David Carr, Alex Smith, and JaMarcus Russell?
    one of the best atheletes the NFL has ever seen, yet you compare him to Boller
    Vick's yards per run this year was 4.0; Boller's was 5.8........so yea, I compared them. Shall we care to compare completion percentage as well?
    He did everything asked of him by Reid, the Eagles and the NFL both on and off the field.
    Can't answer that one since none of us have any idea what Reid asked of Vick. However, if Reid asked him to take 37 snaps over 12 games (right at 3 snaps per game), then yea he did what Reid asked him to. Hopefully, the Rams will get more than 3 snaps a game from him, if he's still capable of it.
    Vick may not have proven he is an elite passer
    MAY not?
    but he has proven to be a very good player at the QB position.
    If by "player" you mean a running back in the quarterback position, then yes, he was a fine player......4 years ago.
    He also proved he can win.
    No, he's proved he can be a part of a winning team, but even then not since 2004. However, if we're going to look at his record as a starting QB, it's 15-16 since the end of the '04 season.
    I am kinda tired of the whole Vick arguement.
    You and me both, my friend.



    Maybe they sign him. If they do, so be it. But nobody needs to be under the impression that Vick is going to turn this offense around. Defenses already shut down the offense by stacking the run; Vick won't change that.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  2. #107
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    hey,


    I give up....

    I can't argue with people that have answers to everything.

    if you have an opinion -- thats great -- if you argue just to disagree thats another...

    I personally think after the combine there is a good chance we go QB, especially if we can do well in free agency....so i think Clausen or Bradford is more likely to go #1 overall

    and maybe Vick never gets here.

    all i know if i had to get 8 wins next season or I was fired I would take Vick over anyone in the draft, and over anyone on our current roster.

    Get the combine here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  3. #108
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    I vote we just shut down this thread. There is to much animosity forming between the two groups. We are all rams fans after all. The topic has been beaten to death and the facts have been posted. Most likely if you have read this thread your opinion is not going to be changed, so lets just stop.

  4. #109
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by 01d 0rd3r View Post
    I vote we just shut down this thread. There is to much animosity forming between the two groups. We are all rams fans after all. The topic has been beaten to death and the facts have been posted. Most likely if you have read this thread your opinion is not going to be changed, so lets just stop.
    I'm all for that.

  5. #110
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    all i know if i had to get 8 wins next season or I was fired I would take Vick over anyone in the draft, and over anyone on our current roster.
    I've been wondering about this angle too. Its pretty apparent to me that Spags has all but used up his "grace" period (1 -15 has a tendency to do that), and he's got to be all about winning now.

    None of the college QBs or even the NFL FAs look like they are ready to stand and deliver at least 6 to 7 wins next year. One might be tempted to put Vick in this category also, but I wonder if Spags and Billy might disagree.

    There sure seems to be a lot of smoke regarding The Vickster and Spags may just view him as his best hope for a semi-successful season next year and ultimately saving his job going forward.

    WHAT SAY YE?

  6. #111
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    I've been wondering about this angle too. Its pretty apparent to me that Spags has all but used up his "grace" period (1 -15 has a tendency to do that), and he's got to be all about winning now.

    None of the college QBs or even the NFL FAs look like they are ready to stand and deliver at least 6 to 7 wins next year. One might be tempted to put Vick in this category also, but I wonder if Spags and Billy might disagree.

    There sure seems to be a lot of smoke regarding The Vickster and Spags may just view him as his best hope for a semi-successful season next year and ultimately saving his job going forward.

    WHAT SAY YE?
    If we're dumb enough to pull the plug on a three-year rebuild program in year two.

    Well...we deserve a lot of what ends up happening to us.

  7. #112
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    If we're dumb enough to pull the plug on a three-year rebuild program in year two.

    Well...we deserve a lot of what ends up happening to us.
    Three-year rebuild programs are a myth in todays NFL. Spags has to win at a minimum 6 -7 games next year or he's toast.

    Not saying that that is fair; it's just the way it is.

    Besides even if we are in a longer term rebuild that is still no excuse for 1 and 15 years. He's gotta show some progress and winning is about the only realistic measuring stick that is available.

    WHAT SAY YE?

  8. #113
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    The funny thing is, we are all arguing over absolutely nothing. We are all rams fans and want the best for our team. Sine say get Vick other say stay away, yet in the end, we have absolutely no say in anything.. so why argue here? All up to Spags and Devaney.

  9. #114
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    The funny thing is, we are all arguing over absolutely nothing. We are all rams fans and want the best for our team. Sine say get Vick other say stay away, yet in the end, we have absolutely no say in anything.. so why argue here? All up to Spags and Devaney.

    I think the reason why we argue is that many Rams fans, including myself are open to any player that can help.

    Its that there are a group of people that just don't like or want Vick here regardless if he can help or not. Even if he signs with the Rams many of these people will argue how management doesn't know what they are doing and then somehow blame every snap, win, and loss on him.

    I would like all players, FA, potential draftees that can help the Rams come and contribute.

    I guess some posters here agree with that as long as it excludes the infamous M.Vick.

    2 weeks until the combine kids.

  10. #115
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    Three-year rebuild programs are a myth in todays NFL. Spags has to win at a minimum 6 -7 games next year or he's toast.

    Not saying that that is fair; it's just the way it is.

    Besides even if we are in a longer term rebuild that is still no excuse for 1 and 15 years. He's gotta show some progress and winning is about the only realistic measuring stick that is available.

    WHAT SAY YE?
    Thus explaining why the same 4 or 5 teams absolutely suck every year in the NFL. How about we break the trend, recognize the absolute depth of the hole we were put in, and give them the full 3 years. The first year was spent rigging demolition charges to the entire rotten edifice err...purging the roster of dead financial weight for cap space; admittedly that now appears to have been something of a fool's errand as John Shaw is an uncommunicative incompetent who must destroy every single thing he touches. If he, who is heavily involved in the CBA negotiations, failed to relay the critical information that the salary cap is going away to the very team he is ostensibly a consultant for, well...should we really blame DeSpags for that? Unfortunately, we went into the season with a vacant lot, and ummm....vacant lots don't usually do well in the NFL's land of McMansions. Anyhow, we got the expected result on the field, and now we can build. Unfortunately, that will take two years, but when it is finished, the building will be highly satisfactory.

  11. #116
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    I can't argue with people that have answers to everything.

    if you have an opinion -- thats great -- if you argue just to disagree thats another...
    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    I think the reason why we argue is that many Rams fans, including myself are open to any player that can help.

    Its that there are a group of people that just don't like or want Vick here regardless if he can help or not.
    Y'know, I was trying to stay out of this one. But I had to jump in here. There's really no reason for antagonism of this nature, from either side. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they "have all the answers," are arguing "just to disagree," or don't want the team to sign players that can help them. The problem isn't that a portion of the fan base doesn't want a player that can help the Rams. It's that a portion of the fan base doesn't believe the player can provide much help to the team, and thus doesn't want him.

    I don't see many fans saying, "Yeah I think Michael Vick can make us a contender, but I don't want him." Most who are not in favor of signing him hold that opinion because they question whether he's talented enough right now to justify it. When you brush off the opposing viewpoint with comments like the quoted ones above, you imply that the other side is making no sense or isn't presenting a logical position. That's simply not the case.

    I've seen people contend that Vick is a winner. Yet when his current team needed a win in the final week of the season to secure a first round playoff bye, an injured Vick didn't play despite participating in full practices the preceding Thursday and Friday. In the first round of the playoffs, when his team needed a win to keep playing for a championship, Vick's number was called only three times. If you have a "winner" on your team and your season is on the line, you play him. But the Eagles didn't use Vick outside of his regular limited workload, and Vick fans don't have seem to have logical answers for this.

    I've seen people praise Vick for the touchdown pass he threw to Maclin in that game against Dallas, but where Vick advocates quiet down is when that play is actually diagnosed. Because when you review the play, not only was Vick's pass delivered late but it was delivered inaccurately. He threw to Maclin, who appears to be the first/primary read on the play, well after Maclin made the cut in his route. And to make matters worse, he didn't lead Maclin enough, forcing the receiver to slow down and nearly giving the beaten DB a chance to make a play on the ball. Yet I think some feel that because this play resulted in a 76-yard touchdown, we're not supposed to remember that it wasn't a very good pass regardless of the outcome.

    We're supposed to believe that Vick is still a playmaker, still capable of making the game changing highlights he used to make. We're supposed to ignore that his team only featured him an average of one pass and two runs per game, or that his completion percentage was incredibly low which, when combined with game observation like the one above, gives many reason to question Vick's accuracy as a passer. Instead, we're supposed to be convinced of Vick's passing talent because of his... superior yards per completion number when compared to quarterbacks who completed more than six passes all season? Because of Pro Bowl trips from 5+ years ago? Because he probably didn't get much work with the starting offense, though that didn't seem to stop Kevin Kolb from completing 64.6% of his throws last season?

    Look, I'm not suggesting that every argument from fans who don't want Vick are absolutely perfect or infallible. But there are some definite, logical points being made in opposition to Vick and the ability his fans seem to praise. And on multiple occasions, not only are those points dismissed or ignored for whatever reason, but they're occasionally countered with points that don't really make much sense or aren't very convincing. What's even worse, sometimes they're counterd with claims of being haters (see thread title), or simply being argumentative (see your quote), or the like.

    I'm with you on one thing, though - I'm also getting tired of the whole Vick argument. Not because I have some personal hatred of Michael Vick, but simply because I don't think much is being accomplished in these debates anymore. Most people have made up their mind and aren't likely to be convinced otherwise, even when presented with specific information that seems to contradict their claims. At this point, I'm ready for some actual news on the topic instead of more and more speculation. But in the meantime, I don't think it's appropriate for either side to suggest the other's motives against a player go beyond their opinion of that player's ability on the field, unless they've specifically acknowledged as much.
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  12. #117
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    Even if he signs with the Rams many of these people will argue how management doesn't know what they are doing and then somehow blame every snap, win, and loss on him.
    If Marc Bulger, a guy who has won games for the Rams, who has taken the Rams to the playoffs, who has been to the Pro Bowl for his qualities as a passer, who has spent a few years getting beaten up behind a shoddy O-Line and yet still picks himself up and tries again gets criticised like that, then i dont expect Rams fans to give Mike Vick any less.

    Unlike Bulger, Vick has never been a good NFL passer. Vick has flipped off fans of his team. Vick has spent years out of football because of off the field antics. Vick has even admitted that he didnt try as hard as he could have when he was with the Falcons. I see no reason why Rams fans should criticise Vick's play any less than that of Bulger's.

  13. #118
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Y'know, I was trying to stay out of this one. But I had to jump in here. There's really no reason for antagonism of this nature, from either side. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they "have all the answers," are arguing "just to disagree," or don't want the team to sign players that can help them. The problem isn't that a portion of the fan base doesn't want a player that can help the Rams. It's that a portion of the fan base doesn't believe the player can provide much help to the team, and thus doesn't want him.

    I don't see many fans saying, "Yeah I think Michael Vick can make us a contender, but I don't want him." Most who are not in favor of signing him hold that opinion because they question whether he's talented enough right now to justify it. When you brush off the opposing viewpoint with comments like the quoted ones above, you imply that the other side is making no sense or isn't presenting a logical position. That's simply not the case.

    I've seen people contend that Vick is a winner. Yet when his current team needed a win in the final week of the season to secure a first round playoff bye, an injured Vick didn't play despite participating in full practices the preceding Thursday and Friday. In the first round of the playoffs, when his team needed a win to keep playing for a championship, Vick's number was called only three times. If you have a "winner" on your team and your season is on the line, you play him. But the Eagles didn't use Vick outside of his regular limited workload, and Vick fans don't have seem to have logical answers for this.

    I've seen people praise Vick for the touchdown pass he threw to Maclin in that game against Dallas, but where Vick advocates quiet down is when that play is actually diagnosed. Because when you review the play, not only was Vick's pass delivered late but it was delivered inaccurately. He threw to Maclin, who appears to be the first/primary read on the play, well after Maclin made the cut in his route. And to make matters worse, he didn't lead Maclin enough, forcing the receiver to slow down and nearly giving the beaten DB a chance to make a play on the ball. Yet I think some feel that because this play resulted in a 76-yard touchdown, we're not supposed to remember that it wasn't a very good pass regardless of the outcome.

    We're supposed to believe that Vick is still a playmaker, still capable of making the game changing highlights he used to make. We're supposed to ignore that his team only featured him an average of one pass and two runs per game, or that his completion percentage was incredibly low which, when combined with game observation like the one above, gives many reason to question Vick's accuracy as a passer. Instead, we're supposed to be convinced of Vick's passing talent because of his... superior yards per completion number when compared to quarterbacks who completed more than six passes all season? Because of Pro Bowl trips from 5+ years ago? Because he probably didn't get much work with the starting offense, though that didn't seem to stop Kevin Kolb from completing 64.6% of his throws last season?

    Look, I'm not suggesting that every argument from fans who don't want Vick are absolutely perfect or infallible. But there are some definite, logical points being made in opposition to Vick and the ability his fans seem to praise. And on multiple occasions, not only are those points dismissed or ignored for whatever reason, but they're occasionally countered with points that don't really make much sense or aren't very convincing. What's even worse, sometimes they're counterd with claims of being haters (see thread title), or simply being argumentative (see your quote), or the like.

    I'm with you on one thing, though - I'm also getting tired of the whole Vick argument. Not because I have some personal hatred of Michael Vick, but simply because I don't think much is being accomplished in these debates anymore. Most people have made up their mind and aren't likely to be convinced otherwise, even when presented with specific information that seems to contradict their claims. At this point, I'm ready for some actual news on the topic instead of more and more speculation. But in the meantime, I don't think it's appropriate for either side to suggest the other's motives against a player go beyond their opinion of that player's ability on the field, unless they've specifically acknowledged as much.
    I believe the logical explanation you seek for why Vick didn't play much has a lot to do with the fragile ego and sensitivity of one Donavan McNabb. His sensitivity is well advertised, and there's no doubt in my mind the Eagles' focus was to playcate their embattled star, rather than create an unnecessary controversy.

    I personally don't believe it's difficult to see that the more Michael Vick played in Philly, the more controversy he is likely to create. Particularly in the games where McNabb appeared to struggle a bit. I'm sure the last thing the Eagles braintrust wanted was controversy and animosity in their locker room. Particularly at the QB position. So for that reason I have no problem trusting that Andy Reid was doing what he thought was best for his starting Qb and his team. And I can look at that without any perceived slight to Vick or his abilities.

    Conversely, because he (Vick) was not afforded a lot of opportunities to get on the field, he was not particularly impressive to the suprise of no one who knows that most QBs need to develop a rhythm to be effective. And that usually comes as a result of consistent opportunities, which Vick did not get for whatever the reason.

    Sure, it's easy to use the logical stance, "if he's so great, why isn't he playing" and stand by that as your arguement, but I fully understand why his opportunities would be limited under the circumstances. And to me, it's just as legitimate as your suggestions that maybe there's a lack in his ability.

  14. #119
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I believe the logical explanation you seek for why Vick didn't play much has a lot to do with the fragile ego and sensitivity of one Donavan McNabb. His sensitivity is well advertised, and there's no doubt in my mind the Eagles' focus was to playcate their embattled star, rather than create an unnecessary controversy.

    I personally don't believe it's difficult to see that the more Michael Vick played in Philly, the more controversy he is likely to create. Particularly in the games where McNabb appeared to struggle a bit. I'm sure the last thing the Eagles braintrust wanted was controversy and animosity in their locker room. Particularly at the QB position. So for that reason I have no problem trusting that Andy Reid was doing what he thought was best for his starting Qb and his team. And I can look at that without any perceived slight to Vick or his abilities.

    Conversely, because he (Vick) was not afforded a lot of opportunities to get on the field, he was not particularly impressive to the suprise of no one who knows that most QBs need to develop a rhythm to be effective. And that usually comes as a result of consistent opportunities, which Vick did not get for whatever the reason.

    Sure, it's easy to use the logical stance, "if he's so great, why isn't he playing" and stand by that as your arguement, but I fully understand why his opportunities would be limited under the circumstances. And to me, it's just as legitimate as your suggestions that maybe there's a lack in his ability.
    I agree with your argument in principle, and it certainly works for the regular season games. But in that playoff game against the Cowboys where the Eagles were being thoroughly beaten, their only score came from a Vick pass, albeit being more of a great play by Maclin. They would not have left McNabb in to keep his ego from being damaged if putting Vick in the game could have saved their season. I agree that they might not have done that in the regular season, considering they made the playoffs still, but in the playoffs everything goes out the window. If Vick could have been better than McNabb, he would have been in there.

  15. #120
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    Re: Get Scared Vick Haters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I believe the logical explanation you seek for why Vick didn't play much has a lot to do with the fragile ego and sensitivity of one Donavan McNabb. His sensitivity is well advertised, and there's no doubt in my mind the Eagles' focus was to playcate their embattled star, rather than create an unnecessary controversy.

    I personally don't believe it's difficult to see that the more Michael Vick played in Philly, the more controversy he is likely to create. Particularly in the games where McNabb appeared to struggle a bit. I'm sure the last thing the Eagles braintrust wanted was controversy and animosity in their locker room. Particularly at the QB position. So for that reason I have no problem trusting that Andy Reid was doing what he thought was best for his starting Qb and his team. And I can look at that without any perceived slight to Vick or his abilities.

    Conversely, because he (Vick) was not afforded a lot of opportunities to get on the field, he was not particularly impressive to the suprise of no one who knows that most QBs need to develop a rhythm to be effective. And that usually comes as a result of consistent opportunities, which Vick did not get for whatever the reason.

    Sure, it's easy to use the logical stance, "if he's so great, why isn't he playing" and stand by that as your arguement, but I fully understand why his opportunities would be limited under the circumstances. And to me, it's just as legitimate as your suggestions that maybe there's a lack in his ability.
    If Reid didnt want to drum up controversy, he wouldnt have brought in a former starting QB for three plays a game.

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