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  1. #31
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    After Furrey lead the NFC in receptions it was one of their top needs? Please. And they also signed McDonald to be the #3 and he excelled in that offense the past year, so WR was far from a top need for the Lions last year.
    Was it their absolute top need? No. Was it a clear position of need? Absolutely, because the Lions did not have a true starter opposite of Roy Williams. The overachieving Furrey, impressive as his '06 season was, certainly was not their ideal long-term starter as evident by their signing him to a mediocre three year extension. The next receiver behind Williams and Furrey in '06 was... Az Hakim with 17 receptions. So they not only lacked a true long-term starter opposite Williams but also had little depth behind Williams and Furrey.

    Yes, they signed Shaun McDonald to a two-year deal, but like Furrey, he's far from an ideal starter and is better served working as a reserve in multiple receiver sets. The Lions needed someone to start opposite of Williams, allowing Furrey and McDonald to provide the necessary receiver depth needed for a Mike Martz offense.

    Positions like defensive end, offensive tackle, and cornerback were bigger needs, and perhaps classifying receiver as one of their top needs was overstating it a bit based on those other positions. In my final mock before the draft, I had the Lions taking Adams as I wasn't quite sold on the Lions using another first round pick on a receiver, but I also recognized that Johnson made a lot of sense for Detroit as a clear upgrade over Furrey.

    What I'm trying to get across here is that, in my opinion, Johnson was in no way a pure "best player available" pick since the Lions were definitely in need of a starting receiver to replace Furrey. They had other perhaps more glaring needs, but I think wide receiver most certainly belonged on the list of areas that needed to be addressed.

    All of this though ignores the larger actual point my response was making, which was that I think it's rather uncommon for teams in the top half of the first round to draft players purely because they're the best available with no consideration of need. Generally, I think teams choose a prospect that not only represents good value on their draft board but also addresses an area of weakness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    Or maybe I should've used Adrian Peterson as an example?
    That would have been a better example, yes.
    Last edited by Nick; -04-17-2008 at 03:55 AM.

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  2. #32
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano View Post
    .

    Carriker is not the best NT. It's a waste of his talents and he's 6'6".

    If this is the plan, it's a HUGE mistake.

    Sure as a cat has kittens.

    Moving him to that spot in Passing situations is another thing.
    As I recall, after moving Carriker around for the first half of last season, he settled as the UT with Clifton Ryan playing the nose on running downs. On passing downs, as you say, it was a different kettle of fish (or is that kittens?). Carriker played Nose to allow Glover to come in as the UT.

  3. #33
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    Re: I am going on record

    I really want Chris Long for the Rams. It makes too much sense. If they want DT, get Trevor Laws in the second. He is a Glenn Dorsey lite.

    This kind of remind me of 92 draft. Colts selected Steve Emtman. A great college player who had injury problem. The Rams selected Sean Gilbert. Good player and safe. Steve Emtman had one great season and injury shorten his career. Sean Gilbert had a good and steady career.

    Also kind of remind me of Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf debate. Peyton Manning was the most polished QB with adequate arm. Ryan Leaf had a great arm was raw and immature with more of a ceiling than Manning. You see how that turned out.

    Chris Long = Peyton Manning, Sean Gilbert - Steady and most polished.
    Glenn Dorsey = Ryan Leaf, Steve Emtman - Boom or bust.

    I just see that. BTW Chris Long is on Fox News Channel.
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  4. #34
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    Re: I am going on record

    Nick has said it, Wolf has said it, I've said it, others have said it, & tx has it tattooed on his left buttocks (don't ask).........any of the Big 4 will help this team!

    Jake Long improves our O-line immediately.
    Chris Long improves our base end position immediately.
    Vernon Gholston improves our pass rush immediately.
    Glenn Dorsey (though there are complications) improves our DL immediately.

    I'm even up for a trade down as long as it was no lower than 4.
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  5. #35
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooselini View Post
    Teke is right though. Look at the Lions. And Wolf, you do make a point. But we already have 3 young DT's. Sure Wroten isn't as good as Dorsey. Who knows, Ryan and Carriker may not be as good. But we do know that we have 3 young DT's and one veteran who has been one of the more popular ones that can teach these young kids.

    We don't have a good DE on the other end of Little. As Wolf pointed out, we'd have a young interior. That would be nice. But what about a young DE who happens to be one of the best players in the draft, and has the hall of fames genes in his blood. I think Long is going to be the best player for us (RAMS).

    It'd be a a luxury to have Dorsey on the squad. But as Teke pointed out, getting the best player available compared to getting the biggest need are two different things. And I'm a firm believer that we need a new DE. DE's dont come around as much as tackles. Most good DE's get signed to a team immediately. DT's can be traded for a third round pick. And we got a pretty good one in the 5th round (i think it was).
    Do we have to draft a DE in the 1st round. Can the Rams find a young talented DE in the 2nd or 3rd round?

    Teke who has Long and Dorsey rank the same. Just because 1 expert ranks them the same does not mean these players are as talented at his position.....

    I believe it all depends on how high the Rams rank Dorsey and Long?

    If they're very close to each other then yes Long would be the most reasonable choice. However, I and some of the experts have Dorsey rank much higher than Long and in that case you have to go with Dorsey.

  6. #36
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    Re: I am going on record

    Of course not, Dominating. We can pick whatever we want, however, it's a commonly held belief league-wide that an elite pass rusher is much harder to come by than a franchise blindside tackle, the other hardest to fill position along with quarterbacks. Adding to that problem is the teams flush with cap money that can keep their good pass rushers, eliminating the possibility of getting a great on in his prime. Defensive tackles are much easier to come by, in general.

    Onto your next question, can we find a DE in round 2 or 3? Of course we can, in round 2 there should be a choice between Calais Campbell, Quentin Groves, Lawrence Jackson and a couple others. The ones I named, however have an ok chance at being taken late in the first round because good DE's are so rare, but at least one should make it to #33. The issue is that these are a massive step down from either Gholston or Long and if we wait till round three, the step will be even larger. So if we wait, we stand to possibly be drafting someone who not only can't start day one, but also would need some development time.

    On the other hand, Kentwaan Balmer, who has a first round grade, could slip out of the round to us, along with other possible choices such as Pat Sims, Dre Moore and Trevor Laws. An interesting fact is that other than Balmer, the other three all are a little quicker than Dorsey, despite being heavier. The difference comes in desire and skill level. Since we already have four established DT's, if one of these guys needs time to adjust to the NFL, they have time to do so, playing in the backup of the rotation.

    Of course it depends on what the Rams rate them out to be, but if we were going to draft to best player available and best rating, we'd be pushing Jax out the door and bringing in McFadden. Fact of the matter is, as far as I know, we're not . So already we're pushing BPA out the window. Already, we're drafting to need. If the ratings were that Dorsey was a top 5 talent,which he is, vs a mid first round grade for Long, I'd say yeah, let's grab Dorsey. But it's not. It's Top 5 vs Top 5. Yes, Dorsey is rated a little higher in that top five, but the point is, they're both elite players. Why over fill one position when the one right next to it, when a similarly elite player is available, desperately needs attention? That's my question. They're both elite players, one fills a desperate need, one is just great but the position is covered. Why use an elite pick on an elite player that doesn't fill a glaring hole when you can fill that hole with another elite player?

  7. #37
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    Of course not, Dominating. We can pick whatever we want, however, it's a commonly held belief league-wide that an elite pass rusher is much harder to come by than a franchise blindside tackle, the other hardest to fill position along with quarterbacks. Adding to that problem is the teams flush with cap money that can keep their good pass rushers, eliminating the possibility of getting a great on in his prime. Defensive tackles are much easier to come by, in general.

    Onto your next question, can we find a DE in round 2 or 3? Of course we can, in round 2 there should be a choice between Calais Campbell, Quentin Groves, Lawrence Jackson and a couple others. The ones I named, however have an ok chance at being taken late in the first round because good DE's are so rare, but at least one should make it to #33. The issue is that these are a massive step down from either Gholston or Long and if we wait till round three, the step will be even larger. So if we wait, we stand to possibly be drafting someone who not only can't start day one, but also would need some development time.

    On the other hand, Kentwaan Balmer, who has a first round grade, could slip out of the round to us, along with other possible choices such as Pat Sims, Dre Moore and Trevor Laws. An interesting fact is that other than Balmer, the other three all are a little quicker than Dorsey, despite being heavier. The difference comes in desire and skill level. Since we already have four established DT's, if one of these guys needs time to adjust to the NFL, they have time to do so, playing in the backup of the rotation.

    Of course it depends on what the Rams rate them out to be, but if we were going to draft to best player available and best rating, we'd be pushing Jax out the door and bringing in McFadden. Fact of the matter is, as far as I know, we're not . So already we're pushing BPA out the window. Already, we're drafting to need. If the ratings were that Dorsey was a top 5 talent,which he is, vs a mid first round grade for Long, I'd say yeah, let's grab Dorsey. But it's not. It's Top 5 vs Top 5. Yes, Dorsey is rated a little higher in that top five, but the point is, they're both elite players. Why over fill one position when the one right next to it, when a similarly elite player is available, desperately needs attention? That's my question. They're both elite players, one fills a desperate need, one is just great but the position is covered. Why use an elite pick on an elite player that doesn't fill a glaring hole when you can fill that hole with another elite player?
    Defensive Tackles are much easier to come by, in general.

    I have to disagree 100% with that statement. Please if you have some evidence I would love to hear it.

    It's like saying shut down corners are easier to come by than hard hitting safeties?

    Just because Champ was traded to Denver does not mean the value of this kind of player is less?

    Measuring the value of a DT is not stat driven. Alot of what a dominate DT does will not show up in the books.

    Plenty of DE have been in the free agent market.

    J. Smith
    A. Carter
    Not too long ago G Wistrom
    J. Kearse
    and Many, Many, Many more so I not sure how you can rank the DE postion a harder position to fill than DT?

  8. #38
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post

    Plenty of DE have been in the free agent market.

    J. Smith
    A. Carter
    Not too long ago G Wistrom
    J. Kearse
    and Many, Many, Many more so I not sure how you can rank the DE postion a harder position to fill than DT?
    The problem is that all of the league's best defensive ends are wrapped up long term. For instance, Dwight Freeney was the NFL's highest paid defensive player. Julius Peppers now holds that title. Terrell Suggs, Richard Seymour, Leonard Little and Aaron Schobel are all locked up (iirc). The reason some good DE's become free agents is because they're simply not worth spending 55 Million on to keep around.

    Let's take a look at the DE's you've listed, shall we?

    Smith- Crap.
    Carter- Crap.
    Wistrom- Crap.
    Kearse- Crap.

    You've really hit a winner with those four, haven't you?

    Smith was very underproductive last season, it looks like Carter doesn't know if he's coming or going between the defensive end or outside linebacker position, Wistrom got old, fast, and after one good season in Philadelhia, a very rich Jevon Kearse fell away.

    It's not a great market. The most successful FA DE I can think of in the past three or four years is Patrick Kearney in, of all places, Seattle.

  9. #39
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    Defensive Tackles are much easier to come by, in general.

    I have to disagree 100% with that statement. Please if you have some evidence I would love to hear it.

    It's like saying shut down corners are easier to come by than hard hitting safeties?
    I think top notch defensive tackles and top notch pass rushers are quite hard to come by. However, I think the prevailing opinion in the league is that you can get by with good but not great defensive tackles--say the equivalent of Clifton Ryan--but you really can't get away with having two mediocre defensive ends (unless you play a 3-4, in which case the same applies to the outside linebackers).

    I don't think the shut down corners versus hard hitting safeties example is a good analogy. Hard hitting safeties are a dime a dozen, but the typical NFL team prefers a wrap-up tackler with good range over a knockout hitter. The trend is towards fielding two guys with the traditional free safety skill set.

  10. #40
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    The problem is that all of the league's best defensive ends are wrapped up long term. For instance, Dwight Freeney was the NFL's highest paid defensive player. Julius Peppers now holds that title. Terrell Suggs, Richard Seymour, Leonard Little and Aaron Schobel are all locked up (iirc). The reason some good DE's become free agents is because they're simply not worth spending 55 Million on to keep around.

    Let's take a look at the DE's you've listed, shall we?

    Smith- Crap.
    Carter- Crap.
    Wistrom- Crap.
    Kearse- Crap.

    You've really hit a winner with those four, haven't you?

    Smith was very underproductive last season, it looks like Carter doesn't know if he's coming or going between the defensive end or outside linebacker position, Wistrom got old, fast, and after one good season in Philadelhia, a very rich Jevon Kearse fell away.

    It's not a great market. The most successful FA DE I can think of in the past three or four years is Patrick Kearney in, of all places, Seattle.
    Carter 10.5 sacks last year and you consider that crap. Then what would you call a productive year?

    If DE are so hard to come by then why would KC considering trading Allen?

    What about the list you provided of DE? Are they all playing with the original team that drafted them. If no, maybe you can try and explain why teams let these Defensive Ends go if they're so valuable?

    How about you give a list of some very productive DT who have been traded or sign with another team and see if the outcome is much more evident than the DE's? Good Luck
    Last edited by Dominating D; -04-17-2008 at 10:48 PM.

  11. #41
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    If DE are so hard to come by then why is KC considering trading Allen?
    Maybe because they want to get something for him now rather than watch him walk as a free agent later. It's entirely possible that Allen doesn't want to resign with Kansas City, who looks as if they may be in rebuilding mode. Let's not forget Allen requested a trade a year ago.
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  12. #42
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Maybe because they want to get something for him now rather than watch him walk as a free agent later. It's entirely possible that Allen doesn't want to resign with Kansas City, who looks as if they may be in rebuilding mode. Let's not forget Allen requested a trade a year ago.
    They could always franchise him if they feel he is valuable at the position.

  13. #43
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    Re: I am going on record

    Don't forget Allen's DUIs. Character concern is at an all time high right now in the NFL.

  14. #44
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    Re: I am going on record

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    They could always franchise him if they feel he is valuable at the position.
    I believe they did franchise him, didn't they?
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