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  1. #1
    yesman is offline Registered User
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    I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year before

    It's deja vu all over again. In the 08 draft, the Falcons were faced with the same dilemma the Rams are in now. Do you take "the best DT since Sapp" or do you take the franchise QB.

    That year, some thought that there weren't any legit top 5 stud QBs in the draft, and that the Falcons should go with best player available and take Dorsey. They went against the common opinion of the time and drafted the franchise QB, and it turned out to be the right choice.

    The lions were in a similar situation last year. When Bradford went back to school, many thought the QBs available weren't worthy of the top pick. Many thought the lions should go BPA and take the LB Curry. They took the franchise QB, and, again, it turned out to be the right choice.

    Here we are in the 2010 draft. A defensive player is the consensus BPA. Jimmy Clausen, the top QB in the draft, is considered by most on this message board to be unworthy of the top selection. But let's look into what he brings to the table.

    He has top notch arm strength. Not as strong as Stafford's, but significantly stronger than Ryan's. He is a very accurate passer. He has played in a pro-style offense for the past three years. Most importantly, he has shown consistent, significant improvement each season of his three year collegiate career.

    This year, his best year, he completed an impressive 68% of his pass attempts. He also threw for 28 touchdowns, compared to only 4 interceptions. In addition to his gaudy numbers, he also has top notch pocket presence and poise.

    Jimmy Clausen is a legitimate blue chip QB prospect. Suh is a stud, but he won't have the same impact as a franchise QB. As the past two drafts have taught us, when you need a franchise QB and one is available, you take him. Simple as that.


  2. #2
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    You know I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I don't think Dorsey was putting up individual numbers comparable to entire team defenses when he was in school. Nor do I think he led his team in tackles when he was in school. Further, I don't think he was a heisman finalist during his days at LSU. The same goes for Curry. Suh is not those players, which is why I think the Rams select him in April.

    You do make an interesting point though, so kudos to that.

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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    I don't think taking a QB first overall is a quarantee of success, so for the lesson is lost on me. I hope it is so for the Rams too. I'd rather they learn the lessons of Pittsburgh and New England who took their QBs after they had enough team in place for that "team" to succeed. A rookie QB isn't gonna be the near future turn around of this team.
    Semper Fi!

  4. #4
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    I think a point everyone wants to miss is that a great QB pick could propel the Rams to a much better record while a great DT pick will not. Suh may be a stud (time will ultimately tell), but is not the most important piece we need right now. If Suh is a stud, we lose games next year 25-10 rather than 35-10 (and thats being very generous).

    One thing I cannot disagree with more is the notion we are going to find an undrafted or 5th round gem... thats a dumb thing to bet on.

  5. #5
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    I think you've slightly exaggerated Clausen's strengths, and thus since my view of him isn't quite as high as yours is, I'm not as convinced he's worth that top spot. For instance, it's hard to have top notch arm strength when your arm isn't as strong as someone from last year who was considered to have great arm strength. And from having watched Clausen, I don't think his pocket presence is top notch, though I think it has improved during his college career.

    While Clausen's improvement up to this point in his college career is impressive, let's not forget he does have some good talent around him. He's throwing to two potential first round receivers in Tate and Floyd. He won't have quite the same talent here, and by all indications he may face similar offensive line struggles as he did during early parts of his college career.

    Drafting a guy first overall means he's not going to have a lot of time to sit and let the team develop before he steps on the field; in all likelihood, he'll be playing at some point in his rookie season. When it comes to Clausen, I'm concerned that exposure to that kind of situation might have a poor effect on his mindset. There's a part of me that isn't completely sold on his intangibles, and it's hard to explain why.

    Don't get me wrong; there's certainly a lot to like about Clausen. I like his accuracy. I like his time spent in a pro offense. I like the improvements he's made and the decision making. And it sounds as if he's made improvements as a leader as well. If there wasn't a prospect like Suh in this draft, it would be a lot easier for me to get behind Clausen (or even a medically cleared Bradford) with this pick. The Rams would be stupid to not give Clausen, Bradford, and other players a long, hard look. You have to do your due dilligence.

    But Suh's presence complicates things, and I think when you're dropping $40 million guaranteed on a guy, you want to go through your evaluations and find the best guy possible. Maybe when it's all said and done, the Rams feel that's Clausen. We'll have to wait and see. I understand the idea of taking a franchise QB if you don't have one. But I don't agree that you should take one at the expense of your evaluations and at the expense of better players. I think that's where teams get into trouble.

  6. #6
    yesman is offline Registered User
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I think you've slightly exaggerated Clausen's strengths, and thus since my view of him isn't quite as high as yours is, I'm not as convinced he's worth that top spot. For instance, it's hard to have top notch arm strength when your arm isn't as strong as someone from last year who was considered to have great arm strength. And from having watched Clausen, I don't think his pocket presence is top notch, though I think it has improved during his college career.

    While Clausen's improvement up to this point in his college career is impressive, let's not forget he does have some good talent around him. He's throwing to two potential first round receivers in Tate and Floyd. He won't have quite the same talent here, and by all indications he may face similar offensive line struggles as he did during early parts of his college career.

    Drafting a guy first overall means he's not going to have a lot of time to sit and let the team develop before he steps on the field; in all likelihood, he'll be playing at some point in his rookie season. When it comes to Clausen, I'm concerned that exposure to that kind of situation might have a poor effect on his mindset. There's a part of me that isn't completely sold on his intangibles, and it's hard to explain why.

    Don't get me wrong; there's certainly a lot to like about Clausen. I like his accuracy. I like his time spent in a pro offense. I like the improvements he's made and the decision making. And it sounds as if he's made improvements as a leader as well. If there wasn't a prospect like Suh in this draft, it would be a lot easier for me to get behind Clausen (or even a medically cleared Bradford) with this pick. The Rams would be stupid to not give Clausen, Bradford, and other players a long, hard look. You have to do your due dilligence.

    But Suh's presence complicates things, and I think when you're dropping $40 million guaranteed on a guy, you want to go through your evaluations and find the best guy possible. Maybe when it's all said and done, the Rams feel that's Clausen. We'll have to wait and see. I understand the idea of taking a franchise QB if you don't have one. But I don't agree that you should take one at the expense of your evaluations and at the expense of better players. I think that's where teams get into trouble.
    When I say top notch, I mean elite but not freakish. There is top notch like Manning (Clausen's arm is probably a little stronger than Manning's) and then there's freakish like Stafford and Jamarcus Russell.

    Obviously the Rams should only draft him if they think he's as good as I think he is. We shouldn''t just draft the guy because he's the best player at his position. But if he grades as a franchise QB, you have to take him.

    Suh is great, a better prospect than Dorsey, who was the best DT prospect in quite some time when he was coming out. As good as Suh is, you don't take him over a franchise QB. If the Rams think, as I do, that Clausen is a franchise QB, then they should take him.

    It is true that Clausen has great targets to throw to, but that doesn't take away from his talents. To throw only 4 interceptions means is impressive, and can't be explained by talented WRs. Also, his offensive line was not all that great. They fell short of pre-season expectations.

  7. #7
    yesman is offline Registered User
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by shower beers View Post
    You know I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I don't think Dorsey was putting up individual numbers comparable to entire team defenses when he was in school. Nor do I think he led his team in tackles when he was in school. Further, I don't think he was a heisman finalist during his days at LSU. The same goes for Curry. Suh is not those players, which is why I think the Rams select him in April.

    You do make an interesting point though, so kudos to that.
    Suh is a better prospect than Dorsey was, and that's saying a lot. He was the #1 rated player on most scouts' draft board. As good as he is though, he's not a franchise QB.

  8. #8
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    What lesson is that? Pick a QB first and still be out of the playoffs?

  9. #9
    yesman is offline Registered User
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by poejoe8 View Post
    What lesson is that? Pick a QB first and still be out of the playoffs?
    The Falcons made the playoffs in Ryan's rookie year. The Lions were, like the Rams are, too far from playoff contention for any particular draft pick to get them to the playoffs.

  10. #10
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    I knew Atl made the playoffs last year, but if they don't make it next year then what difference would it make? I like Matt Ryan, but he didn't make great strides in his second year, and he certainly wasn't the reason the Falcons made the playoffs last year. Stafford isn't going to lead the Lions to playoffs anytime soon. There isn't a QB in this years draft who has the leadership and toughness of either Ryan or Stafford. Clausen put up some great numbers passing this year against mediocre competition and I can't remember the last time a highly-touted ND QB did anything but average in the NFL (Montana wasn't highly-touted coming out of college). Bradford has too much to prove to be an early #1 and McCoy isn't going to help anyone for a few years. I hope the Rams draft a QB in the 2nd round or wait until next year.

  11. #11
    yesman is offline Registered User
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by poejoe8 View Post
    I knew Atl made the playoffs last year, but if they don't make it next year then what difference would it make? I like Matt Ryan, but he didn't make great strides in his second year, and he certainly wasn't the reason the Falcons made the playoffs last year. Stafford isn't going to lead the Lions to playoffs anytime soon. There isn't a QB in this years draft who has the leadership and toughness of either Ryan or Stafford. Clausen put up some great numbers passing this year against mediocre competition and I can't remember the last time a highly-touted ND QB did anything but average in the NFL (Montana wasn't highly-touted coming out of college). Bradford has too much to prove to be an early #1 and McCoy isn't going to help anyone for a few years. I hope the Rams draft a QB in the 2nd round or wait until next year.
    What difference does it make? It's a competitive league, you're not going to make the playoffs every year. Especially if you're a team picking at the top of the draft. And yes, Ryan was a big reason the Falcons made the playoffs. Second most important player on the team that year. Matt Ryan had a sophomore slump, which isn't uncommon. He was one of the highest rated QBs in the league for about the first five games, then he played a stretch og bad games. He's still a franchise QB. And it's ridiculous for you to judge Clausen based on the performance of past ND QBs.

  12. #12
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Clausen went to Notre Dame. Notre Dame doesn't produce good quarterbacks not named after states. No matter how much they pride themselves in being a pro-style offense or whatever, their QB's always suck.

  13. #13
    yesman is offline Registered User
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Again, its ridiculous to judge Clausen based on the performance of other players. Also, the thing about drafting Suh is this; although he's a stud, DT is incredibly deep in this draft. If the Rams want a DT, they will be able to find a good one in the second round. The same can't be said about the QB position. Finding a gem in the later rounds is very rare.

  14. #14
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Clausen is a good prospect, and while he had good measurables, he was 16-18 at Notre Dame despite playing on a team with better than average talent. I don't see much difference between Jimmy Clausen and Brady Quinn.

    And if you're going to look at drafts, I think you need to look at more than the last two. For every Matt Ryan and Matthew Stafford, there's a JaMarcus Russell and Alex Smith. "Franchise quarterback" is a tough title to earn, and finding one is a crapshoot.

    When a team in free-fall is picking first, they have to get it right. Choosing the wrong guy can set a franchise back years in the re-building process. Suh is seen as the BPA, has the resume to back it up, fills a vital need for the Rams, and IMO is the best bet to realize his potential.

  15. #15
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    Clausen is a good prospect, and while he had good measurables, he was 16-18 at Notre Dame despite playing on a team with better than average talent. I don't see much difference between Jimmy Clausen and Brady Quinn.

    And if you're going to look at drafts, I think you need to look at more than the last two. For every Matt Ryan and Matthew Stafford, there's a JaMarcus Russell and Alex Smith. "Franchise quarterback" is a tough title to earn, and finding one is a crapshoot.

    When a team in free-fall is picking first, they have to get it right. Choosing the wrong guy can set a franchise back years in the re-building process. Suh is seen as the BPA, has the resume to back it up, fills a vital need for the Rams, and IMO is the best bet to realize his potential.

    Great post. I don't think anything could've made a better argument than this right here.

    The point is, we have way too many holes to fill. We allowed 137 rushing yards a game. That is 27th in the league.

    There is a prospect who had better stats than entire defensive lines! How do you pass that up? Suh is outperforming entire defensive lines. We happen to need a defensive tackle.

    Yes, we need a QB, but I would rather get the sure pick than a QB who had a losing record in his school.
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