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  1. #46
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by LongBlood View Post
    Then by your logic the same could be said about Cincy, Oak, the Jags, Bills, 'skins, and texans for all passing on Josh Freemen last yr. Same could be said with a hint of a qb question mark for every team that passed on ANY QB in every year of the draft that turned out to be a pro bowler. Good lord, every team passed on Drew Brees!
    I don't follow. I was arguing that it's more important to evaluate the talent than to focus on what position they play. I'm not sure where the argument about Freeman and Brees is going. Obviously, if teams thought Brees would play like he has in recent years, they wouldn't have passed on him. Heck, he was a free agent before he joined the Saints and teams still weren't exactly beating down his door.

    I'm just saying you take Clausen if you're convinced he's an elite quarterback, but you don't take him just because he's the highest rated quarterback on your board this year and you need a quarterback.


  2. #47
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by yesman View Post
    You keep trying to make this about who is the top prospect on the big board, but you should be asking who would make the most impact on the Rams. Most knowledgable football fans know that QBs have much more impact on the game than DTs. All of this "best DT prospect in years" stuff means nothing. The question is what is his upside. Unless he will be, by far, the best DT in the league, then he won't make as much impact as your flavor of the month franchise QB.
    *Cough* *Cough* WR....SJax has the boxed stacked against him, and it doesn't matter how good your QB is with this group of WR, they drop the ball. Isnt Bulger still under contract for another yr anyway? Do you really want to do the same thing as last yr and draft a position when we still have a guy under contract to play that position and ignore a huge glaring need?

  3. #48
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    The rookie makes some really good thoughtfull posts.

    Disclaimer: I'm not anti Suh

    Elite defensive players come around every few years, no such thing as once in a decade IMO. 2002 Julius Peppers was considered a once in a decade talent. 2004 Sean Taylor was considered a once in a decade talent at safety. 2006 Mario Williams once in a decade talent. Heck people were calling Curry a once in a decade talent at LB. Are you telling me Suh is going to be better than Julius Peppers or Mario Williams. He could reach there level, but better I don't know about that. This really has nothing to do with this post, but I'm just saying once in a decade is an exageration.

    In 08 Glenn Dorsey was the clear cut BPA, and was widely assumed to be the Falcons pick. Dorsey (not comparing Suh and Dorsey) was considered to be one of the best DTs to come out in a while. They saw something in Matt Ryan and after long evaluation and careful planning they were confident he was the Franchise QB to revive the Franchise. My point is the Rams can look at Claussen in that same light this offseason. I agree with yesman Franchise QB> Pro Bowl DT. If you determine Claussen is that you draft him.

  4. #49
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by yesman View Post
    It all comes down to this. For a team like the Rams who have needs at both positions, which player makes the bigger impact on the team over the next 10 years: A franchise QB, or a franchise DT. I bring Ngata into the discussion because he is arguably the best DT in football. As good as Ngata is, if the Ravens had to choose a player to keep between him and Flacco, your flavor of the month franchise QB, then they would keep Flacco. They would keep Flacco because QBs are more valuable and more important in the sport.

    Why do I bring this up? Because I think it is very unlikely that Suh will be a significantly pro than Ngata, if he's as good at all (too early to say). If Clausen becomes a franchise QB in the mold of Ryan, Flacco etc, he'd be more valuable than Suh if Suh becomes a stud DT in the mold of Ngata. They are different style DTs, but the point is still valid.

    You keep trying to make this about who is the top prospect on the big board, but you should be asking who would make the most impact on the Rams. Most knowledgable football fans know that QBs have much more impact on the game than DTs. All of this "best DT prospect in years" stuff means nothing. The question is what is his upside. Unless he will be, by far, the best DT in the league, then he won't make as much impact as your flavor of the month franchise QB.

    Now this whole discussion is moot if the Rams brass don't think Clausen will be a franchise QB. If they do, however, then they will inevitably conclude that he would have more impact on the team than a DT, and Clausen will be the pick.
    Look, I don't think I've been arguing that quarterback isn't an important or impactful position. The question is whether or not Clausen is a guy who grades out high enough to go first overall ahead of highly decorated, highly productive, and highly touted prospects at other positions. You seem to think he is; I've not yet been convinced of this.

    It's interesting that you bring up the Ravens, because I think the formula for winning in Baltimore has been a strong running game and an elite defense. Joe Flacco has been fairly good overall, but IMO his contributions have not been as important to the Baltimore formula at this point as the dominant defense they've been able to maintain, which Ngata is a big part of. And I think what the Rams are trying to build here is close to the Ravens mold - strong defense and a power running offense, with a West Coast spin.

    You said that if Clausen becomes Ryan or Flacco while Suh becomes Ngata, then Clausen will be more valuable. I'm not quite as convinced of that as you are. I'd be willing to buy that argument if Clausen becomes a Rodgers or a Rivers, but if I'm spending a first overall pick on a quarterback, then I want something more than what Ryan and Flacco have produced in their first two seasons. Especially if in the process I'm bypassing a guy who is considered not only the best prospect in this class, but one of if not the best to come along at his position in a while because of his combination of production and pro potential.

    Ultimately the debate centers on how you view Jimmy Clausen, and since we have two slightly different views on the guy, I don't think we're going to find much middle ground on the smaller points. If the Rams do decide to take Clausen first overall, then I can only hope he does become that franchise guy that many feel he can be for the next decade. Trust me when I say that no one would be happier about that than me.

  5. #50
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    In 08 Glenn Dorsey was the clear cut BPA, and was widely assumed to be the Falcons pick. Dorsey (not comparing Suh and Dorsey) was considered to be one of the best DTs to come out in a while. They saw something in Matt Ryan and after long evaluation and careful planning they were confident he was the Franchise QB to revive the Franchise. My point is the Rams can look at Claussen in that same light this offseason. I agree with yesman Franchise QB> Pro Bowl DT. If you determine Claussen is that you draft him.
    Dorsey was seen as an elite talent, but not so elite that four teams took a pass on him. I doubt four teams are going to pass on Suh, who is seen not only as elite, but very special.

    As to your and yesman's point about Franchise QB > Pro Bowl DT, I think most here would agree. If the Rams see Clausen as the type of QB who can revive the franchise as you say, and be an elite performer, it wouldn't be surprising at all to see them pull the trigger on him. Whether or not they actually see him that way is a big if, especially with the first pick at stake.

    When evaluating boom or bust potential, Suh looks to me like a much safer bet than Clausen. A misstep here could be devastating.
    Last edited by r8rh8rmike; -01-06-2010 at 02:20 AM. Reason: Spelling

  6. #51
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    after reading all these posts and watching yesman and Nick go head to head for abit, ive come to a conclusion myself.

    I think you have to grab Suh...

    I like Clausen and would love to see him in blue and gold but his tools arent "elite", though the combination that he has is indeed rare. I do believe however that you will have your franchise guy next year and that Bulger has to be your guy another year (assuming the rams keep him). Last year was cleaning out the old crap, this year has to be installing all the new, fancy crap. Next year will be polishing that crap with the finishing piece. BPA combined with need has to win out, on simply need

    BPA+Need=Suh
    Need= Clausen


  7. #52
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    I want to take the best player available. The Rams are lucky that they are in a position where the best player available is likely to be at a position of need for the team.

    However, i dont get why a lot of you assume that a QB picked high in the draft is a franchise QB, or that picking a QB high in the draft is going to definitely pan out.

    Also, comparing players like Glenn Dorsey and Sean Taylor to Suh as "elite" players is incorrect. Dorsey and Taylor were never seriously considered for the number 1 overall pick. The only real elite level defensive player in recent years that has come out is Julius Peppers. Even Mario Williams was never considered to be a first round pick into late in the build up to the draft. Suh is completely different. He is expected to be the first overall pick.

    When Peppers came out, the Houston Texans had the first overall pick, and instead of taking the elite defensive talent they picked their franchise QB, David Carr. Because of that decision, the Texans have only just had their first winning season, some 7 seasons after the draft. Whereas the Panthers went to the superbowl only a season after the Peppers selection.

  8. #53
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    I want to take the best player available. The Rams are lucky that they are in a position where the best player available is likely to be at a position of need for the team.

    However, i dont get why a lot of you assume that a QB picked high in the draft is a franchise QB, or that picking a QB high in the draft is going to definitely pan out.

    Also, comparing players like Glenn Dorsey and Sean Taylor to Suh as "elite" players is incorrect. Dorsey and Taylor were never seriously considered for the number 1 overall pick. The only real elite level defensive player in recent years that has come out is Julius Peppers. Even Mario Williams was never considered to be a first round pick into late in the build up to the draft. Suh is completely different. He is expected to be the first overall pick.

    When Peppers came out, the Houston Texans had the first overall pick, and instead of taking the elite defensive talent they picked their franchise QB, David Carr. Because of that decision, the Texans have only just had their first winning season, some 7 seasons after the draft. Whereas the Panthers went to the superbowl only a season after the Peppers selection.
    Good Point regarding Peppers.

    However, i dont get why a lot of you assume that a QB picked high in the draft is a franchise QB, or that picking a QB high in the draft is going to definitely pan out.

    Franchise QB--the pick and money required to sign a #1 overall pick at QB will give your fanchise no good options at the position because of gurarantee money. If the player does not work out then the team will have limited options due to the salary cap and guarantee money involved.

    The ODDS of selecting a probowl/superbowl QB in the 1st round is much higher. Although you can find them in the later rounds but the odds are much more against you.

    Go Rams

  9. #54
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Look, I don't think I've been arguing that quarterback isn't an important or impactful position. The question is whether or not Clausen is a guy who grades out high enough to go first overall ahead of highly decorated, highly productive, and highly touted prospects at other positions. You seem to think he is; I've not yet been convinced of this.

    It's interesting that you bring up the Ravens, because I think the formula for winning in Baltimore has been a strong running game and an elite defense. Joe Flacco has been fairly good overall, but IMO his contributions have not been as important to the Baltimore formula at this point as the dominant defense they've been able to maintain, which Ngata is a big part of. And I think what the Rams are trying to build here is close to the Ravens mold - strong defense and a power running offense, with a West Coast spin.

    You said that if Clausen becomes Ryan or Flacco while Suh becomes Ngata, then Clausen will be more valuable. I'm not quite as convinced of that as you are. I'd be willing to buy that argument if Clausen becomes a Rodgers or a Rivers, but if I'm spending a first overall pick on a quarterback, then I want something more than what Ryan and Flacco have produced in their first two seasons. Especially if in the process I'm bypassing a guy who is considered not only the best prospect in this class, but one of if not the best to come along at his position in a while because of his combination of production and pro potential.

    Ultimately the debate centers on how you view Jimmy Clausen, and since we have two slightly different views on the guy, I don't think we're going to find much middle ground on the smaller points. If the Rams do decide to take Clausen first overall, then I can only hope he does become that franchise guy that many feel he can be for the next decade. Trust me when I say that no one would be happier about that than me.
    In all honesty, I'm not even a Rams fan. I'm a Falcons fan that is having deja vu. A couple years ago everyone on the falcons board wanted Dorsey, just like everyone here wants Suh. We were saying Dorsey is the best DT prospect of the decade, etc etc. There was talk about him going #1 overall, etc, leading up to the draft. No one was that high on Matt Ryan because he wasn't as highly touted by scouts as your typical top of the draft QB. We were all pissed when our GM took Ryan, but it turned out to be the right decision.

    I think Clausen could be the next Ryan, and I feel he'd have a much bigger impact on your team than Suh would if he becomes a franchise QB. However, he has a higher bust potential than Suh, and if he busts then your team will be crippled in the future. You're probably better off taking Suh unless Clausen looks 100% legit since Suh has a very low bust potential. Since you will, in all likelihood, be in the top three again next year, you will have a chance to draft Jake Locker or another top QB prospect.
    Last edited by yesman; -01-06-2010 at 11:37 AM.

  10. #55
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    I want to chime in with everyone who says take the best player available cause they are absolutely right. Thing is how we will ever know who is the best player available? We(well i know im not) are not in on the scouting decisions made by the 32 nfl teams. I bet you couldnt even get 16 of the NFL teams to agree who was the best player available each year. That being said I also dont like the word franchise qb. What does that mean? This yesman character said that jay cutler was not a franchise qb. Well if jay cutler isnt a franchise qb then is sounds as if the word franchise qb is very much someones opinions. I also follow the draft and honestly cant remember a pick that was 100% certain but, suh right now stands as the closest that i can remember since maybe reggie bush and how has that turned out? And lastly if we are going to build this run first, run second, run third offense and we have a obviously defensive minded head coach I really dont see us getting a qb in the first and maybe not even in the second. Run first teams tend to add their qb as the last piece of the puzzle, eg baltimore, miami(they dont even have a qb or maybe its they dont have a franchise qb),jets, or maybe the steelers but they seem to throw more now. And lastly some people think you need a "franchise qb" first then you can build around him. Well that cant be true because im seeing a lot of rookie qbs gettting into the playoffs. No way they built there team in one draft. This is making feel more confident about not getting a qb this year and just letting bulger deal with this offensive mess one more year. At least with him we wont be turning the ball over 2 to 3 times a game. Im done thinking out loud now. I will go back to my cave for 2 seasons.
    Last edited by jquarando; -01-06-2010 at 12:54 PM.

  11. #56
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    I think Billy is going to think about this long and hard. My opinion keeps changing, but at this moment in time, I prefer Jimmy Clausen with the #1 pick. Suh is a great player, sure, but the Rams are in desperate need of a new QB. The Rams D would have been much better this season if we had consistent offense to keep them off the field. Top 18 I say.

    How many times have the Rams gotten a stop when needed, and the Rams had a chance to win the game with the last possession? 7 times, 7 times that we needed to score and we couldn't. That sticks out more than our D. In New York and Philadelphia they don't have high priced DTs, they have Franchise QBs. Jimmy Clausen is a franchise QB. He's spent 3 years working in a Pro Style offense, he has all the physical tools in the world. Shurmur happens to be a pretty damn good QB coach as well.

    A Franchise QB will go further than a high priced DT, IMO.
    RamsFan16

  12. #57
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    I think Billy is going to think about this long and hard. My opinion keeps changing, but at this moment in time, I prefer Jimmy Clausen with the #1 pick. Suh is a great player, sure, but the Rams are in desperate need of a new QB. The Rams D would have been much better this season if we had consistent offense to keep them off the field. Top 18 I say.

    How many times have the Rams gotten a stop when needed, and the Rams had a chance to win the game with the last possession? 7 times, 7 times that we needed to score and we couldn't. That sticks out more than our D. In New York and Philadelphia they don't have high priced DTs, they have Franchise QBs. Jimmy Clausen is a franchise QB. He's spent 3 years working in a Pro Style offense, he has all the physical tools in the world. Shurmur happens to be a pretty damn good QB coach as well.

    A Franchise QB will go further than a high priced DT, IMO.
    This is true, but the Rams could pick Suh this year and Locker next year.

  13. #58
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by yesman View Post
    This is true, but the Rams could pick Suh this year and Locker next year.
    We cannot wait another year. It'd be another year to delay the rebuilding process, we cannot wait that long. I'd love for us to trade down with Tampa Bay or Detroit, and then grab Clausen and have 2 - 3 more high draft picks. Even so, it should be what is best for the team at this point in time. That'd be QB, we can't afford to put a franchise QB off another year. We just can't. We've done it the last 3 years!
    RamsFan16

  14. #59
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    We cannot wait another year. It'd be another year to delay the rebuilding process, we cannot wait that long. I'd love for us to trade down with Tampa Bay or Detroit, and then grab Clausen and have 2 - 3 more high draft picks. Even so, it should be what is best for the team at this point in time. That'd be QB, we can't afford to put a franchise QB off another year. We just can't. We've done it the last 3 years!
    The Buc are desperate for Suh, and they have two second round pics I believe. If the Rams really want Clausen they should trade the first pick for the third pick and the Bucs 2nd rounder, #35 overall. That's less than what it would typically take to trade up, but in this case, the Rams should do it rather than taking Clausen at one. You know the Lions won't take him at 2. Trade down to 3, pick up a high second rounder, and sign Clausen for less than it would take if you drafted him at one. The Buc would do this in a heartbeat. Works for both teams. The Lions could draft a nice DT in the second since this is being called the deepest DL draft in history.

  15. #60
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    Re: I hope we learn something from the lions last year and the Falcons the year befor

    Don't be surprised if the Rams will not show their hand and entertain all possible offers leading up to the draft. This is the leverage that owning the first pick allows. This will help their negotiating and depending on which teams make them an offer, will reinforce who the best player is perceived to be throughout the NFL. Barring an irresistible offer from another team (including proven players and/or high draft picks) the Rams should pick the best player in the draft. At this point, that player is arguably Suh. If it turns out to be another player before the draft, then the Rams need to pick that player first, or trade down.


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