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    npow81's Avatar
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    If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    I don't think he would be regarded as a first round talent.

    I think its remarkable how much different people view qbs depending on who they play for. Which is relevant only to the level of competition they play against and who they actually play for (and NDs schedule really isn't anything to shout about aside from SC and maybe BC)

    I think this is especially true for ND, considering they are on TV virtually every week.

    While I think Clausen has talent, I think his issues (pocket presence, delivery, lack of winning, etc.) should raise some questions enough that he shouldn't be in the first round.

    Frankly I don't regard him as anymore than a second rounder (which gauging by some of yours love for him I sure you will disagree)

    I guess you can put it this way, if Tony Pike or Dan Lefevour played for ND would they be regarded as first rounders?

    In my mind they are near the same level, so the stark contrast in perceived value makes me wonder...is this the case

    (If you don't think so, what are the qualities in Clausen that differeniate him...because I don't see it.)


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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    I thought Clausen's delivery was supposed to be a positive because he gets the ball out quickly, and I haven't seen a lot of complaints about pocket presence either. Here are just a few notes from around the web to that effect:


    Quote Originally Posted by New Era Scouting
    Mechanics: Clausen is very technically and fundamentally sound. Posses a short, compact release that gets the ball out of his hand in a hurry. Throwing motion fluid and releases the ball high, preventing batted balls. Very sound and fluid in his drop backs.

    Pocket Awareness: Perhaps the biggest improvement Clausen has made in his time at Notre Dame is his ability to feel the rush. Moves well in the pocket and understands when it is time to take off. Good at avoiding the rush and still getting the throw off. Not afraid to stand in and take the hit to make the play.
    Quote Originally Posted by fftoolbox.com
    Has an efficient setup and over the top delivery motion. Typically shows good power and touch on deep balls. Has improved his accuracy significantly during the past two years. Has a pro-style release...

    Shows quick footwork when moving in the pocket and consistently moves and slides to avoid sacks. Is very experienced in a pro-style offense set.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivals.com at Yahoo Sports
    Clausen is as mechanically developed as any quarterback in the last decade. He has a very quick release he delivers from ear level, a strong arm and excellent accuracy. Clausen is mobile enough to get outside the pocket when needed and throws well on the run. He has excellent feet, makes quick and smart decisions and displays excellent poise and pocket presence. Clausen throws a nice deep ball, but his strength is in the intermediate passing game where he can deliver the ball with the most zip. He leads his targets well and knows how to throw the ball in tight coverage, putting it where only his receiver can catch it. Clausen gets into his drops quickly and sets well before most of his throws. He has good ball skills but needs to sell play action a bit better. He needs to add strength and fill out his frame.
    I've seen similar comments elsewhere. I'm not saying these guys are experts or anything, but I'm seeing a lot of the same positive comments about his delivery and pocket presence.


    The lack of wins kind of bothers me, but at the same time it's hard to put that all on the quarterback. Notre Dame's average loss last season was by 4 points, and their biggest loss was by 7.

    One of the biggest things in Clausen's favor is that he's just about the only top quarterback prospect who has succeeded while making his own pre-snap reads (Bradford for example looked to the sideline where the coaching staff would signal if adjustments were necessary), dropping back to pass (unlike LeFevour, McCoy, and other spread QBs who played mostly out of the shotgun), and staying in the pocket to check down through his receivers rather than running around until he finds someone open. So all the guys from spread offenses have to convince NFL teams that they can do things they didn't have to do to succeed in college, whereas Clausen just has to convince teams that he can do the same types of things he is already doing only at a higher level of competition.

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    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I thought Clausen's delivery was supposed to be a positive because he gets the ball out quickly, and I haven't seen a lot of complaints about pocket presence either. Here are just a few notes from around the web to that effect:

    I've seen similar comments elsewhere. I'm not saying these guys are experts or anything, but I'm seeing a lot of the same positive comments about his delivery and pocket presence.
    It's going to depend on what scouting report you read and what day of the week it is. For instance, there are more than a few out there that talk about Clausen having a bit of a wind-up delivery at times, likely as he tries to compensate for not having an elite arm.

    It's interesting that New Era Scouting talks about Clausen consistently releasing the ball high to prevent batted balls, as I've read multiple reports that indicate his lack of height combined with inconsistent release might cause more batted balls at the next level.

    There's going to be fluctuation in evaluation simply because it's different people doing the evaluating, but the range and variation of views on Clausen is what makes me nervous. For every resource that claims he's the best passer in the class and is deserving of consideration for the top pick, there's one that puts him in the teens and twenties.

    To some people, maybe that doesn't mean a hill of beans. But I think it's hard to ignore when thinking about him as a potential pick.
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Not pro or con on Clausen, but the current SuperBowl Champion and record breaking QB Drew Brees is at least two inches shorter than Clausen - so that lack of height issue is overrated (ie. J. Russell is very tall... so what).

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by ramhard View Post
    Not pro or con on Clausen, but the current SuperBowl Champion and record breaking QB Drew Brees is at least two inches shorter than Clausen - so that lack of height issue is overrated (ie. J. Russell is very tall... so what).
    It's also one of the reasons Brees fell to the second round. Clausen is listed at 6'3" but there are more than a few people who think he'll measure in shorter than that. Not saying it'll prevent him from being successful, but quarterback height is definitely a consideration in the evaluation process. The exception (Drew Brees) doesn't exactly change the rule.
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by npow81 View Post
    I don't think he would be regarded as a first round talent.

    I think its remarkable how much different people view qbs depending on who they play for. Which is relevant only to the level of competition they play against and who they actually play for (and NDs schedule really isn't anything to shout about aside from SC and maybe BC)

    I think this is especially true for ND, considering they are on TV virtually every week.

    While I think Clausen has talent, I think his issues (pocket presence, delivery, lack of winning, etc.) should raise some questions enough that he shouldn't be in the first round.

    Frankly I don't regard him as anymore than a second rounder (which gauging by some of yours love for him I sure you will disagree)

    I guess you can put it this way, if Tony Pike or Dan Lefevour played for ND would they be regarded as first rounders?

    In my mind they are near the same level, so the stark contrast in perceived value makes me wonder...is this the case

    (If you don't think so, what are the qualities in Clausen that differeniate him...because I don't see it.)
    Jimmy Clausen wouldnt be a first rounder if he did not play for Notre Dame your right but not the way you thought

    Notre Dame has a horrible defense and a below average O-line. And basically no running game.

    Jimmy Clausen had to lead that team. Also in Notre Dame the operate in a WCO like the one here that the Rams play as well as other nfl teams so he plays in a pro style offense.

    He faced USC who had one of the best D-lines and the best DBs in all of College football his numbers:

    24-43 260 yrds 2TDs 0picks

    USC lineman knew ND was going to pass because clausen has no rushing attack so they were in pass rush mode all game yet Clausen was solid and did not force a pick.

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by BarronWade View Post
    Jimmy Clausen wouldnt be a first rounder if he did not play for Notre Dame your right but not the way you thought

    Notre Dame has a horrible defense and a below average O-line. And basically no running game.

    Jimmy Clausen had to lead that team. Also in Notre Dame the operate in a WCO like the one here that the Rams play as well as other nfl teams so he plays in a pro style offense.

    He faced USC who had one of the best D-lines and the best DBs in all of College football his numbers:

    24-43 260 yrds 2TDs 0picks

    USC lineman knew ND was going to pass because clausen has no rushing attack so they were in pass rush mode all game yet Clausen was solid and did not force a pick.
    Your right in the fact that ND's lack of success is primarily due to their D. However, my point is that if he is this #1 pick guy, irrespective of all that, wouldn't he be able to garner more than six wins?

    Furthermore, (as I say to my ND friend who will never shut up) name the highest quality win that ND had this year (Michigan State, Washington, BC, go ahead you chose out of that pool of mediocrity).

    When you add in losses to the likes of Navy, Michigan, Conn. and the like I just say irrespective of the fault, if we are going to draft a guy #1 he shouldn't let that happen.

    Furthermore, even if you were to look at his production, without looking at wins and losses to put the success ND did have on offense solely on Clausen is a huge misnomer--he's was throwing to three players that will likely be drafted in the first two rounds (Tate, Floyd, Rudolph) (albeit Floyd was out for part of the year)

    TO ME, Tate on numerous occassions made Clausen (and his numbers which you like to restate) look way better than reality.

    Really, your going to put up these numbers "24-43 260 yrds and 2td" against USC in support of Clausen?

    (1) Those really aren't great numbers in cfb look at his completion percentage
    (2) USC D (no matter what talent level they are) was at best, above average this year, and was torched on several occassions

    Don't get me wrong, I think Clausen has some talent as I said, but this garbage that we should take him first overall is complete nonsense, there is nothing from what I have seen or you should have seen that should warrant a #1 pick, let alone a #15 pick.

    Say he gets to us in the second round, would I be upset if we took him, no, but would I say that no matter where he is drafted that I see some bust potential, yes.

    I think that because of the marginal talent he does have, and the fact that he is extremely visible and everyone knows who he is (because he plays for ND) people want to make the talent he has into first round talent, and frankly i just don't see it.
    Furthermore, I think for once McShay is dead on about Clausen's lack of ceiling, and if he is right, you are taking for basically Clausen for what he is right now.

    Whatever happens taking Clausen early is far, far, more likely to be a Rick Mirer esque mistake than a pass on the next Joe Montana.
    Last edited by npow81; -02-18-2010 at 05:16 PM.

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    If Suh played for Central Michigan, would he be considered at the #1 pick?

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    If Suh played for Central Michigan, would he be considered at the #1 pick?
    I don't think so Rebel.

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    If Suh played for Central Michigan, would he be considered at the #1 pick?
    Good point. However, not seeing someone because who they play for, is far different than making someone something they're not because of who they play for.

    I'm not trying to make Lefevour out to be anything more than he is. People are trying to make Clausen out to be more than what he is. The difference, in my opinion is the team they played for.

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by npow81 View Post
    Good point. However, not seeing someone because who they play for, is far different than making someone something they're not because of who they play for.

    I'm not trying to make Lefevour out to be anything more than he is. People are trying to make Clausen out to be more than what he is. The difference, in my opinion is the team they played for.
    So you think scouts are so blinded by the gold shining from the Notre Dame helmets that all else equal they just point at that shiny object and say "draft that thing over there"?

    What about Clausen says to you that scouts are wrong, you are right and he's nothing if he isn't at Notre Dame? Give specifics, not wide dramatic swaths of glorious theory.

    edit: I saw Central Michigan & Cincy on ESPN several times last year. These weren't difficult QBs to find. Cincy was routinely on national TV and was in a championship game.

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    My point is that the QB of ND is a prominent position in college football, therefore everyone knows who he is, and since this ND qb has some talent, that people want to make him to have more talent that he actually does have.

    When I say people, I mean the common fan, not scouts, particularly those common fans that think Clausen is worth the #1 pick.

    If a scout disagrees with me, that's fine I'm not a scout, but I don't think any scout or draft analyst or at least any I've seen say that Clausen is good value at the #1 pick.

    Therefore, my problem is comes from people saying we should draft him at #1, and I think that is in part a result of the being the qb at ND.

    As for specifics, I am not a scout, but this is what i see as the positives and negatives of Clausen
    Positives
    Decent Arm (not great)
    Above Average Accuracy
    Played in pro-style system

    Negatives
    Delivery is suspect (I think his release his quick enough, but in my opinion he directs his passes(i.e. shows defenders where he is going)
    Pocket presence (i see this as a glaring weakness, again personal opinion)
    Low Ceiling
    Is he a winning qb? (includes all intangibles, like i said before NDs losses arent his fault per se, but shouldn't he have been able to win more irrespective of this)
    Size (Drew Brees is the exception to the rule, not the rule (although I wouldn't ever judge a qb solely based on this, it is part of the discussion)

    Again, I am not a scout, but I think they are enough questions that make it so it is clear he is not worth a #1 pick. Clausen does nothing great, in my mind, he's overall a good player, but not a great player and I don't think he has the ceiling to be a great player.

    Also, as I am not a scout, I may not be able to adequately describe all the positives and weaknesses, but and I know this is all conjecture when you watch a player playing cfb I think something must pop out to you to tell you that person is going to be an good NfL player and when that person is going to be a great NFL player, Clausen didn't have that effect on me because of every single "factor" in analyzing the QB position I don't think Clausen has a single tool that you say wow, as at most even his strengths are only above average. When you weigh in the weaknesses in my opinion he is not a first round player.
    Last edited by npow81; -02-18-2010 at 06:46 PM.

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    I would agree that Clausen's receivers have made him look good, but I disagree about his ranking being related to playing at Notre Dame. In fact, I think that with Brady Quinn not panning out as of yet, there may even be a little bit of a backlash about drafting another ND quarterback in the first round. I think people are just putting a lot of stock in this idea that Charlie Weis' system has prepared him for the NFL. Even before he went to ND, he was a five star recruit out of high school. Anyway, I think he is a little overrated, but I don't think it's because of the school.

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I would agree that Clausen's receivers have made him look good, but I disagree about his ranking being related to playing at Notre Dame. In fact, I think that with Brady Quinn not panning out as of yet, there may even be a little bit of a backlash about drafting another ND quarterback in the first round. I think people are just putting a lot of stock in this idea that Charlie Weis' system has prepared him for the NFL. Even before he went to ND, he was a five star recruit out of high school. Anyway, I think he is a little overrated, but I don't think it's because of the school.
    I don't necessarily think its the school per se, I just think its Notre Dame's media presence that makes him more prevalent in the minds of people (maybe its a subconscious thing).

    You bring up a interesting thing about Quinn, because in my mind Quinn was much further along than Clausen is...if Quinn went in the twenties and hasn't panned out yet (although i think there is still hope for him) what does that say for Clausen?

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by npow81 View Post
    Your right in the fact that ND's lack of success is primarily due to their D. However, my point is that if he is this #1 pick guy, irrespective of all that, wouldn't he be able to garner more than six wins?

    Furthermore, (as I say to my ND friend who will never shut up) name the highest quality win that ND had this year (Michigan State, Washington, BC, go ahead you chose out of that pool of mediocrity).

    When you add in losses to the likes of Navy, Michigan, Conn. and the like I just say irrespective of the fault, if we are going to draft a guy #1 he shouldn't let that happen.

    Furthermore, even if you were to look at his production, without looking at wins and losses to put the success ND did have on offense solely on Clausen is a huge misnomer--he's was throwing to three players that will likely be drafted in the first two rounds (Tate, Floyd, Rudolph) (albeit Floyd was out for part of the year)

    TO ME, Tate on numerous occassions made Clausen (and his numbers which you like to restate) look way better than reality.

    Really, your going to put up these numbers "24-43 260 yrds and 2td" against USC in support of Clausen?

    (1) Those really aren't great numbers in cfb look at his completion percentage
    (2) USC D (no matter what talent level they are) was at best, above average this year, and was torched on several occassions

    Don't get me wrong, I think Clausen has some talent as I said, but this garbage that we should take him first overall is complete nonsense, there is nothing from what I have seen or you should have seen that should warrant a #1 pick, let alone a #15 pick.

    Say he gets to us in the second round, would I be upset if we took him, no, but would I say that no matter where he is drafted that I see some bust potential, yes.

    I think that because of the marginal talent he does have, and the fact that he is extremely visible and everyone knows who he is (because he plays for ND) people want to make the talent he has into first round talent, and frankly i just don't see it.
    Furthermore, I think for once McShay is dead on about Clausen's lack of ceiling, and if he is right, you are taking for basically Clausen for what he is right now.

    Whatever happens taking Clausen early is far, far, more likely to be a Rick Mirer esque mistake than a pass on the next Joe Montana.
    A question i have for you is did you watch any of the games Clausen played this year?

    Also before the season people were asking who is this golden tate guy. And i think Tate will struggle because Tate does not run routes well at all. Clausen had that trust in Tate and because of his athletic ability Clausen through it high so only his man can get it. Tate knows how to pluck the ball out of the air does that remind you of a certain Brandon Gibson?

    You keep saying Clausen has been in the publics eyes and is always on TV. He was the #1 high school recruit that many teams wanted. Yea alot of people know about him but Everytime doesnt he deliver. He is in the publics eyes alot but he does play well and does not let all that hype get to him.

    And your telling me about Todd McShay's analysis? The guy does not know what he is talking about. He said the Rams would take G. McCoy over Suh as the 1st pick.

    Also because he plays for ND there is alot of film a scout can find something wrong with him. But i dont see that big issue. Remember last year Eugene Monroe and Andre Smith had way more film than Jason Smith? Smith started as the 4th best OT then got selected as the #1 OT.

    Jimmy Clausen is not slipping out of to the 2nd round id be surprised if he slipped out of the top 10

    This is the same exact situation as Mark Sanchez. Last year people thought that sanchez would slip to the 2nd and the Rams can pick him up. But that did not happen.

    Also the only bust factor i see in him is if he goes on a team that does not protect him and he keeps taking shots.

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