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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    I've watched the play too and he was hit as he was throwing or at least the defender was close enough to where Jimmy had to alter his mechanics to get the ball off. Weis said in his aftergame presser, that had Jimmy not been hit as he threw that would have been a TD, so that blitzing LB was clearly an issue.
    Sorry, Fitz, but I just don't think that's accurate. As I said, I rewatched the play in order to be able to comment on it accurately in this discussion. Clausen simply is not hit before or during the throw. Here's the image so we can remove any question about it:



    As you can see, the ball (circled in red) is already in the air before the defender even gets there. The only way Clausen's release or delivery is affected is if he himself alters it in expectation of getting hit. So take your pick - either he severely underthrew the pass, or he threw it off of his back foot because he didn't want to get hit. I don't think either are excusable simply because the guy had a defender bearing down on him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    With your concerns about his attitude, he seems to have great relationships with his teammates who all look at him as a leader. But he is also clearly friends with a lot of guys on opposing teams as well. Everson Griffen, Taylor Mays, Tate Forcier etc.

    I noticed you used the Gunnell example as a knock on Jimmy. Jimmy went over to shake the guy's hand and Gunnel put a finger in his face. And then in his press conference Clausen said that he had no hard feelings towards Gunnell and that he was a great player. Which person comes off as immature in that situation?

    With the altercation outside the pub, I've heard varying stories but who knows what's true? I really doubt that Jimmy would go out looking for a fight, given all he has to lose. I really don't get the sense from hearing Clausen talk that he is a dumb guy. Honestly if he was I don't think Weis would have wanted him at ND so badly. I really think that the negative perception among fans of Clausen is more about who he is then what he's done.

    I think Clausen like Quinn, will interview very well at the combine. Given who Jimmy's coaches are he'll probably have a good idea of what to expect.
    Jimmy's story regarding the BC incident doesn't exactly add up. If he was going over there to be a good sport and congratulate the guy, then he wouldn't have shoved him. Just walk away, very simple. Whether or not you believe Gunnell's take on it, or Jimmy's for that matter, there's no reason to shove the guy and Clausen did. Simple as that.

    And it's because of that shove that I wouldn't be surprised if he had some kind of hand in the pub incident getting out of control. You claim that he has too much to lose to do anything stupid, but again, go back to the BC incident. He's on national television on the field in front of a reporter and a camera man, and he apparently still let his temper get the better of him. Why is it so unbelievable that he'd slip up off the field at two in the morning at some pub? We're not going to know for certain what happened there, but I'm not quite as willing to just brush off or excuse Clausen's behavior, sorry.

    Like I said earlier, I wouldn't expect a Clausen fan to agree that any of these issues are particularly concerning. But those are the things that stand out to outsiders looking in, since you were curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by BarronWade View Post
    One more thing about you guys saying he throws to high. Look at Eli Manning with Plax all those years. I live in NJ so i saw alot of this. Eli kept hooking up with plax on the high throws where plax had to jump. Eli and plax had that chemistry and trust.

    This is similar to Clausen and his receivers. Tate is not as tall as plax but tate had very very nice leaping and athletic ability and Floyd is just tall. We have a very nice leaper in Gibby and a tall receiver that can catch the high throws Laurant Robinson (remember the end-zone fade Robinson caught?)
    There's a difference between intentionally throwing a pass high to take advantage of a match-up, and throwing a pass high because you didn't deliver the ball as accurately as you could have. I think there are instances of both in Clausen's college résumé.
    Last edited by Nick; -02-21-2010 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Merging back to back posts

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  2. #32
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    [QUOTE=BarronWade;332168]Like Clausen i am not a QUITTER
    Quote Originally Posted by npow81 View Post



    If hieght does not matter to you then we dont have to talk about it .



    You said his accuracy is a strength isnt that The most important attribute of a QB?

    I disagree with you about directing passes he is good but at times directs it a little high.





    I did not get this when Todd McShay said and i dont get it when you say it. What skills make Clausen similar to JP LOsman

    please explain this to me because i do not get it at all i dont see the similarities one bit.




    Where did you think Mark Sanchez should have been taken last year?

    How is he not top of draft material if he is already coached in a pro style offense and is very polished?







    One more thing about you guys saying he throws to high. Look at Eli Manning with Plax all those years. I live in NJ so i saw alot of this. Eli kept hooking up with plax on the high throws where plax had to jump. Eli and plax had that chemistry and trust.

    This is similar to Clausen and his receivers. Tate is not as tall as plax but tate had very very nice leaping and athletic ability and Floyd is just tall. We have a very nice leaper in Gibby and a tall receiver that can catch the high throws Laurant Robinson (remember the end-zone fade Robinson caught?)
    His accuracy is his strength, but its still not premier (I will admit other than the high throws (not throwing it up to a receiver, of course that is fine) I think he is sufficiently accurate to be an NFL qb.

    In regards to directing his passes, I am saying that I believe he tips where he's going before he goes there, does he have adequate arm strength against NFL defenses to not make this a liability, i'm not sure.

    Jimmy is more accurate than Losman, but has a weaker arm, as a total package and just looking at them play they look very similar, as I said, when I see Jimmy I think Losman, its kind of a plain look test (not enough time to explain everything sorry)

    Sanchez was picked about the right spot.

    However, Sanchez gets way too much credit for what he did this year. He made strides, but was down right awful at times this year (however he improved, and did play well in some spots along the way.)

    The Jets were winners because of their running game and defense, not really due to Sanchez at all, not to mention that the Jets have a superior offensive line, helping Sanchez in protection and what not.

    If Jimmy came here he would not be afforded such luxuries (aside from a decent running game)

    Sanchez has been given too much credit, I like him and what he did and think he has a chance to be good, but way too much credit.

    In addition, Sanchez's intagibles are off the charts, are Jimmy's?, it appears not.

    I'm out, not enough time to respond sorry.

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Look in the picture where his left foot is. He doesn't have the luxury of being able to step into the throw. Like I said, he had to alter his mechanics just to get the ball off. Had he tried to step into the throw he would have been hit earlier resulting in a lame duck pass over the middle.

    If you want an example of Clausen throwing a strike in the face of the blitz, then look at his second TD pass to Golden Tate in the SC game. Or the pass in the same game to Robby Parris on 4th and 10.

    Clausen had his hand out to shake the guy's hand and Gunnell put his finger in Clausen's face. I have no problem at all with how Clausen handled the situation. You act as if Clausen's temper got the best of him and he just hauled off and hit the guy. Gunnell got in Clausen's face and then Jimmy walked away. I like how you completely exaggerated the shove by the way. Clausen was as calm as one would expect him to be and handled the situation like a man from where I sit.

    I've heard varying stories but the most common one I've heard is that it was a friend of a friend that hit Clausen. Emotions were running very high in South Bend that night and to be honest it wouldn't have surprised me if it was just some stupid, drunk ND fan. But according to you any guy that has ever gotten a black eye or has been in a fight is immature? I don't buy that.

    You can question his maturity all you want, but I think that Jimmy from a mental aspect is going to be a posititive force on and off the field. And I'm not just taking into account his maturity, but also his mental toughness, his competitiveness, and his ability to thrive in pressure packed situations.

    What matters is what his own teammates think of him anyways, and they voted him captain.

  4. #34
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    Look in the picture where his left foot is. He doesn't have the luxury of being able to step into the throw. Like I said, he had to alter his mechanics just to get the ball off. Had he tried to step into the throw he would have been hit earlier resulting in a lame duck pass over the middle.
    Once again, I've reviewed the play numerous times just today in order to respond to you. I've described specifically what I saw on these reviews. I've even provided pictorial evidence to support my summary of events. Yet none of this seems to be convincing enough to you, so I don't know what else to say.

    He was not hit as he threw, as you claimed in two earlier posts. As is evident in the picture, the ball is already well out of his hand, and the defender is still nearly a yard to a yard and a half away from him. Here is another image, taken as Clausen reached the end of his drop:



    As you can see, the defender is a full four to five yards away from Clausen and Jimmy has plenty of room to step into a throw down field. He didn't, electing instead to throw off of his back foot instead of stepping up properly, and the result is an underthrown pass. Your description of this play is simply not reflected in the actual game video or the pictures I've provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    Clausen had his hand out to shake the guy's hand and Gunnell put his finger in Clausen's face. I have no problem at all with how Clausen handled the situation. You act as if Clausen's temper got the best of him and he just hauled off and hit the guy. Gunnell got in Clausen's face and then Jimmy walked away. I like how you completely exaggerated the shove by the way. Clausen was as calm as one would expect him to be and handled the situation like a man from where I sit.
    How did I exaggerated the shove? All I said was that he shoved Gunnell, which is what he did. I'm baffled at how that's an exaggeration.

    There's video of this on YouTube as well, for those who want to see it. Clausen walks over to Gunnell to shake his hand, Gunnell points at Clausen and says something indistinguishable, and Clausen reaches out, puts his hand on Gunnell's chest, and shoves Gunnell back while simultaneously turning away from him.

    That's what happened. No exaggeration at all in those statements.

    Apparently you see nothing wrong with this, even going so far as to say Clausen behaved "like a man." That disappoints me, because I don't think shoving a guy is a mature way to act after a game, regardless of what Gunnell said to him. To me, that's not how a man reacts to that situation. That's more like how a boy reacts to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    I've heard varying stories but the most common one I've heard is that it was a friend of a friend that hit Clausen. Emotions were running very high in South Bend that night and to be honest it wouldn't have surprised me if it was just some stupid, drunk ND fan. But according to you any guy that has ever gotten a black eye or has been in a fight is immature? I don't buy that.
    Now you've resorted to putting words in my mouth; I never said anyone who has ever gotten a black eye or has been in a fight is immature. What I said was that, because of the incident on the field with Gunnell, I wouldn't be surprised if Clausen had some kind of hand in the pub incident.

    You contend he wouldn't have done anything at the pub because he knows how much he has to lose. But that doesn't make much sense, seeing as how that didn't stop him from shoving Gunnell on the field in front of a reporter. If Clausen is willing to do that in the heat of the moment, I don't see why it's unreasonable to think he may have had a hand in the pub situation getting out of control.

    Unfortunately, we'll never know for certain what happened in the pub. But I would imagine NFL teams are going to ask him about it rather than just ignore it and assume it was someone else's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    You can question his maturity all you want, but I think that Jimmy from a mental aspect is going to be a posititive force on and off the field. And I'm not just taking into account his maturity, but also his mental toughness, his competitiveness, and his ability to thrive in pressure packed situations.

    What matters is what his own teammates think of him anyways, and they voted him captain.
    I hope that's the case, especially if he's being considered by the Rams. But I've seen and heard enough to make me feel his maturity and attitude is at the very least a question mark that would need to be addressed during the pre-draft process. If the Rams feel comfortable with those issues and make Clausen their pick, so be it. I'll cheer him on, as I would any other Ram. But as of right now, it's a concern for me.
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  5. #35
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    First of all, look at where Floyd is in the second picture. That's him at the fifty with two defenders on either side. At this point yes Clausen has room to step into a throw, but his receiver hadn't come open yet. Also the guy that hit Clausen had already beaten his man in the second picture. My description of the play is accurate and is also consistent with what Coach Weis said happened.

    When you go to shake someone's hand after a game and they respond by pointing a finger in your face, that's extremely disrespectful. It was just a little shove that says "get out of my face." Clausen could have responded by staying there and yelling right back at him, or worse, he could have really pushed him with two hands. But he was composed enough not to do that. And in case you didn't know Clausen congratulates his opponents after a win or a loss. For instance, how he waded through a slew of Michigan fans to shake Tate Forcier's hand after the Michigan game. I just got the sense from your post that him giving a guy who's pointing a finger in his face a little shove was the worst thing he could do. From what I could tell, Clausen was justified in shoving Gunnell out of his face. I wouldn't put that incident as much of a question mark on his draft stock.

    Yes, Clausen was involved in some sort of altercation at a bar in some capacity. Obviously he had a hand in it. You're saying that because we saw Jimmy Clausen with a black eye that we should raise questions about his maturity and that his shoving Gunnell away somehow makes it more likely that he would get into a fight at a bar three weeks later. Some people have control of their emotions. You could tell that Clausen does if you had watched the Purdue, Washington, Michigan, Mich St., SC, Stanford, or Navy games. I think his composure on the field is a much better reflection of his character than some story about a barfight that we know nothing about.

    I would also like to add that in his press conferences and his off field interviews that he comes off as very intelligent. He's very self deprecating, and is always quick to give credit to his o-line, receivers, and defense. Whether they're deserving or not.

    My contention is that we have no idea what happened at the bar, so I can't question it either way. I probably should have been a little more clear about that.

  6. #36
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    First of all, look at where Floyd is in the second picture. That's him at the fifty with two defenders on either side. At this point yes Clausen has room to step into a throw, but his receiver hadn't come open yet. Also the guy that hit Clausen had already beaten his man in the second picture. My description of the play is accurate and is also consistent with what Coach Weis said happened.
    Based on this paragraph, it's becoming clear to me that there's nothing I can present to you that's going to convince you this was a poor play by Clausen. I base this on two comments:

    1) Your suggestion that Clausen shouldn't or can't make the throw to Floyd because Floyd hasn't come open yet strikes me as rather unbelievable, because quarterbacks are routinely required to make throws before their receivers have actually broken open. Often times, when a quarterback waits for the receiver to actually become open before throwing the ball, they've taken too much time and increased the likelihood of a negative outcome. In this instance, it's clear on the video the safeties took a false first step and bit on the play action. Based on the second picture, Floyd is running his go route while the three DBs are all still turning to recover and follow him. Clausen has to deliver his throw at the conclusion of his dropback, making sure to step into the pass to ensure both proper accuracy and depth. By hesitating and then throwing off of his back foot rather than stepping into the pass, Clausen delivers an inaccurate ball and Floyd has to significantly slow his route in order to make a play on it.

    2) You claim your description of the play is accurate and consistent with what Coach Weis said. Yet according to your earlier post, Coach Weis said of the play that, "had Jimmy not been hit as he threw that would have been a TD." As I've demonstrated, Clausen was not hit as he threw. Thus, Coach Weis' recollection of the play (as you've described it) is incorrect, as it claims Clausen was hit and that prevented the touchdown. If you'd rather side with someone whose recollection of the play has been shown to be incorrect, then I don't know what else can be said. It seems you're willing to discount or argue against photo and video evidence in order to side with Coach Weis and Clausen on this one. First you said you knew that Clausen was hit when he threw it. When it was shown he wasn't hit, you claimed the poor throw was because the defender affected his ability to throw. When it was shown he had enough room to step into the throw, you then said he somehow couldn't throw it because Floyd hadn't yet broken open. It seems to be one excuse after another, none of which make much sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    When you go to shake someone's hand after a game and they respond by pointing a finger in your face, that's extremely disrespectful. It was just a little shove that says "get out of my face." Clausen could have responded by staying there and yelling right back at him, or worse, he could have really pushed him with two hands. But he was composed enough not to do that. And in case you didn't know Clausen congratulates his opponents after a win or a loss. For instance, how he waded through a slew of Michigan fans to shake Tate Forcier's hand after the Michigan game. I just got the sense from your post that him giving a guy who's pointing a finger in his face a little shove was the worst thing he could do. From what I could tell, Clausen was justified in shoving Gunnell out of his face. I wouldn't put that incident as much of a question mark on his draft stock.
    So instead of really doing something bad and pushing Gunnell with two hands, Clausen stayed composed and only pushed him with one?

    I really have no idea how to respond to that. You seem to really be going to great lengths to excuse Clausen and justify his actions. But reacting to Gunnell's comments by pushing him in any fashion, in my opinion, suggests a lack of maturity on Clausen's part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    Yes, Clausen was involved in some sort of altercation at a bar in some capacity. Obviously he had a hand in it. You're saying that because we saw Jimmy Clausen with a black eye that we should raise questions about his maturity and that his shoving Gunnell away somehow makes it more likely that he would get into a fight at a bar three weeks later. Some people have control of their emotions. You could tell that Clausen does if you had watched the Purdue, Washington, Michigan, Mich St., SC, Stanford, or Navy games. I think his composure on the field is a much better reflection of his character than some story about a barfight that we know nothing about.
    Again, not what I said; I never said Clausen's black eye was enough to raise questions about his maturity. I said that the incident with Gunnell shows that, even though Clausen isn't a dumb guy, it's possible that he can react unfavorably when provoked. Because of that incident, it's not unreasonable to question whether or not he had a role in the situation at the pub escalating, rather than it simply being a fan who completely sucker-punched him and Clausen being just an innocent victim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    My contention is that we have no idea what happened at the bar, so I can't question it either way. I probably should have been a little more clear about that.
    I agree, which is why we can't simply assume that Clausen didn't have anything to do with it and was solely a victim. Especially when at least one other incident showed that he responded physically when verbally antagonized.



    At this point, I think it's clear that this debate isn't going anywhere. I've presented about as strong a case as I can on this topic, drawing upon both video analysis and photo evidence to make my case. If you remain unconvinced, then I can't think of anything else I could provide to sway your opinion. To me, the photographs and the actual game tape speak for themselves. I would think those would be convincing enough on their own, but I guess if you're a Clausen fan, maybe it's just tough to admit when the guy has made a poor play, I don't know...

    I think Clausen is a first round prospect based on his own merit rather than his university, but I've pointed to some areas where I think are holding him back from being considered one of the elite prospects in this class. He's good in a number of areas, but not great IMO. If the Rams are interested in him, I hope they find a trading partner rather than taking him #1 overall. Because I don't consider him to be good value with that selection.

    Take care.
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  7. #37
    Fitz46 is offline Registered User
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    I realize that quarterbacks often times have to throw before their receivers come open. I've rewatched that play a million times today, trying to see whether or not he could have stepped into that throw. That defensive lineman got to him fast. It looked to me that as soon as Jimmy dropped back he reared back and fired. I'm just not seeing the hesitation that you are.

    When I said he was hit as he threw, I said that off the top of my head from what I remember of the game and Weis's presser. When I rewatched it, he wasn't hit as he was throwing, but his mechanics had to alter drastically. I also think those stillframes you showed were a little misleading, as it's difficult to tell the speed at which everything was moving.

    The difference between a one handed push and a two handed push is pretty big. A two handed push says I'm going to stay an escalate this altercation. What Clausen did was push on his chest with one hand as if to say "get out of my face." If you can't see the difference in that, than I just don't know what else to say.

    I think it's completely unreasonable to say that because of what happened with Gunnell that Clausen was more likely to have escalated the situation at the pub. From the video of him and Gunnell, which is all we have to go on, it didn't look like Clausen did anything wrong.

    If you're implying that I'm acting as if or think that Clausen was solely a victim, I can assure you that nothing is further from the truth. I said that I really doubt that Clausen, based on what I've seen from him was out looking for a fight after a hard loss.

    There is nothing that any fan has seen from Clausen personality wise that one could really say that there's a major red flag or any red flags really. Nobody knows about the pub incident and nobody really knows about what happened with Gunnell other than what we see on video. When someone says that they should "question his maturity", it just seems like an unnecessary jab at a guy who as far as we know has done nothing wrong. And it leads to pointless debates with college football fans like me who watch way too much football. I feel like we have focused way too much on one play and a couple of incidents that we disagree on, that we haven't talked enough about what's going on with Clausen that's going to matter in the NFL.

  8. #38
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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    There is nothing that any fan has seen from Clausen personality wise that one could really say that there's a major red flag or any red flags really. Nobody knows about the pub incident and nobody really knows about what happened with Gunnell other than what we see on video. When someone says that they should "question his maturity", it just seems like an unnecessary jab at a guy who as far as we know has done nothing wrong. And it leads to pointless debates with college football fans like me who watch way too much football. I feel like we have focused way too much on one play and a couple of incidents that we disagree on, that we haven't talked enough about what's going on with Clausen that's going to matter in the NFL.
    Clausen has been described as an arrogant jerk and the next Ryan Leaf. Here is what Steve Beuerlein had to say about Clausen:

    Former Notre Dame quarterback and CBS analyst Steve Beuerlein basically posed that question in some critical comments to the Chicago Tribune in December. Beuerlein told the newspaper, "When you're meeting a Notre Dame quarterback, you expect to walk away and say, 'Man, that guy is sharp. He's got it going on.' You can just sense something. Without getting into it, those are the things, the few times I've talked to him, I haven't come away thinking."

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    Re: If Clausen Didn't Play for Notre Dame...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz46 View Post
    When you go to shake someone's hand after a game and they respond by pointing a finger in your face, that's extremely disrespectful. It was just a little shove that says "get out of my face." Clausen could have responded by staying there and yelling right back at him, or worse, he could have really pushed him with two hands.
    I agree with Fitz about the shove and the bar altercation. I think you guys are over-analyzing a couple instances in a 3 year period. Shane Falco got punched in the face in a bar in a 2 hour movie, but he still had miles and miles of heart and made the playoffs. After watching the shove, it was really nothing. Clausen just wanted to say good game and the guy just went off. If he does poorly in the interviews, I'd reconsider. I haven't really listened to the guy though, and the events people point at seem minor if he's a good guy in the locker room.

    But watching about 30 minutes of highlights on Youtube making me an expert on the guy, I regard Clausen alot more in line with Colt McCoy than Sam Bradford.

    This is what I thought about Clausen:
    1. The guy is tough. He played with a toe injury and ran all over the place like it was nothing.

    2. He definitely can make deeper throws when he steps into it than Colt.

    3. Sam Bradford can definitely make all the throws you need your QB to make on the football field. Clausen does not inspire the same confidence in me. Bradford has questions himself, but that's another story.

    4. I think I heard McShay or someone say that Clausen can't throw without stepping into the pass, which is why he shows up all over the draft board. I think it was Favre who said you really can't excel at quarterback in the NFL without being able to throw off your back foot. I have no idea if #4 is actually right, just trying to put together things I have heard.

    That said, I still hope we go Suh. I think if Clausen slides to late first round, maybe we can move up, but #1 or even #3 are just too high for him.

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