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  1. #1
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
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    If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    than Jeremy Macklin?
    Recently there have been a plethora of posts discussing the very real possibility that the Rams might take a wideout with their first pick. So far all of the posts I've read are sold on Michael Crabtree as the best among WRs. BUT HOLD ON A MINUTE: What about Jeremy Macklin of Missouri? He has good size at 6'0" and 200 lbs. and has tremendous speed (4.3 in the 40). And he was a virtual highlight show both as a WR and punt returner.

    I would like to challenge all of those who think that M. Crabtree should be the pick to explain why he is clearly better than Jeremy Macklin.


  2. #2
    djdeeznutz Guest

    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    than Jeremy Macklin?
    He has good size at 6'0" and 200 lbs.
    Maklin does not have good size 6 feet 200 pounds is typical burner size. He is not a tall WR

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    and has tremendous speed (4.3 in the 40). And he was a virtual highlight show both as a WR and punt returner.
    We do not need another Donnie Avery if we get somone that is suppose to lineup opposite Avery we need someone who is completly opposite of him and that is a tall possection reciever like Crabtree.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    I would like to challenge all of those who think that M. Crabtree should be the pick to explain why he is clearly better than Jeremy Macklin.
    I challenge u then lol

    Jeremy Macklin is a good reciever but not for the Rams. Speed recivers like him come every year and they come in bunches.

    look at last year i can compare 3 recivers from the 2nd round to Maklin:

    Donnie Avery Rams
    Desean Jackson Eagles
    Eddie Royal Broncos

    Since a speedy reciver like Maklin comes every year there is no point making him a top 3 pick.

    Crabtree makes it happen with spin and jukes and get the tough yards. Macklin speeds to get it. Also it is pretty easy to cover Avery and Macklin if you know they will be running go routes.

    Just does not fit in with the Rams.

    But good try

  3. #3
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Issac and torry wasn't that different, But I agree if we get a WR I want a big physical one

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    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by djdeeznutz View Post
    1.) Maklin does not have good size 6 feet 200 pounds is typical burner size. He is not a tall WR



    2.) We do not need another Donnie Avery if we get somone that is suppose to lineup opposite Avery we need someone who is completly opposite of him and that is a tall possection reciever like Crabtree.



    I challenge u then lol

    3.) Jeremy Macklin is a good reciever but not for the Rams. Speed recivers like him come every year and they come in bunches.

    look at last year i can compare 3 recivers from the 2nd round to Maklin:

    Donnie Avery Rams
    Desean Jackson Eagles
    Eddie Royal Broncos

    4.) Since a speedy reciver like Maklin comes every year there is no point making him a top 3 pick.

    Crabtree makes it happen with spin and jukes and get the tough yards. Macklin speeds to get it. Also it is pretty easy to cover Avery and Macklin if you know they will be running go routes.

    Just does not fit in with the Rams.

    But good try
    Sorry I haven't reponded sooner, but I was waiting to see if the Crabtreers had anything of importance to say for their boy, and apparently they don't.

    Let me answer your post in the order it was given since I don't know how to put multiple quotes in one post.

    1.) Um...at 6ft and 200lbs he's actually a little bigger than both Bruce and Holt. Last I looked they've both done very well at that size.

    2.) "We don't need another Donnie Avery.." Like hell we don't. Look, I understand where you and the ubiquitous Crabbies are coming from, but have you ever considered what would happen if Avery went down with injury? Oh wait...he did get injured twice last year, didn't he? Ask yourself this: what will happen to our passing attack if our only speed receiver gets injured again . Right, it will look a lot like last years. I'm not certain where this "we need someone completely opposite Avery" comes from. We sure didn't need it when Bruce and Holt were lighting it up.

    3.) No actually slow possession receivers like Crabs are available every year ( and are a dime-a-dozen for the most part). It's the speed guys that everyone covets.

    4.) You may very well be correct when you say that Macklin is not worthy of being a top 3 pick; but since the Crabites did not present much of case for their boy, I can only conclude that neither is he going to be worth taking at # 2 in the first round. From what I've been able to conclude the Crabtreers are just in love with him because he put up a bunch of flossy numbers in a bogus college offense and in a conference that plays defense about as well.. as...the...Rams...do. (Gosh, that was tough to admit that!)

    BTW I'm in the process of also being converted back to Eugene Monroe ( I read your latest thread-good job). After looking into Mr. Crabbie, Monroe is looking better all the time.

    WHAT SAY YE?

  5. #5
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    3.) No actually slow possession receivers like Crabs are available every year ( and are a dime-a-dozen for the most part). It's the speed guys that everyone covets.
    Possession receivers are easier to find, but not necessarily the ones like Crabtree. There is something to be said for having a player who makes catches regardless of whether he's covered because he's strong enough he can't be bumped off his route and has the size and leaping ability to bring down the ball even when a defender is in his way. I think the argument would be not just that he makes catches, but that he can come through in clutch situations. On 3rd and 5, you don't need a guy who can get open downfield. You just need someone who can win the jump ball. Same thing with goal line situations. Speed is going to be of limited use when there's nowhere to run.

  6. #6
    djdeeznutz Guest

    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Let me start by saying i do not want Crabtree anymore i want Monroe. But Crabtree is better than Macklin

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    1.) Um...at 6ft and 200lbs he's actually a little bigger than both Bruce and Holt. Last I looked they've both done very well at that size.
    Have you been living under a rock for the last 3 1/2 years? We are not in the Mike Martz era anymore where any WR can flurish. We are now in the Spagnuolo era.

    I dont know if you know this yet but Bill Deavany is our GM (iight il chill bro just doggin you a bit) Bill Deavany said we are going to get bigger and more physical so size does matter now.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    2.) "We don't need another Donnie Avery.." Like hell we don't. Look, I understand where you and the ubiquitous Crabbies are coming from, but have you ever considered what would happen if Avery went down with injury? Oh wait...he did get injured twice last year, didn't he? Ask yourself this: what will happen to our passing attack if our only speed receiver gets injured again . Right, it will look a lot like last years. I'm not certain where this "we need someone completely opposite Avery" comes from. We sure didn't need it when Bruce and Holt were lighting it up.
    Burton can easily fill in.

    Injury? so we should get macklin.

    Lets go for Stafford cuz have ever thought of Bulger going down?
    Lets go for Beanie Wells what if S-Jax goes down?
    Lets go for Orakpo Chris Long might get a torn ACL?

    We cannot predict injuries we have to trust our back-up. We do not draft a player if we think he might get injured

    Injuries are a part of the game (look at those dam Patriots), you just got to move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    3.) No actually slow possession receivers like Crabs are available every year ( and are a dime-a-dozen for the most part). It's the speed guys that everyone covets.
    Bro read it right i said GOOD speedy recievers are available in every draft. Good possecion guys are hard to get.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    4.) You may very well be correct when you say that Macklin is not worthy of being a top 3 pick; but since the Crabites did not present much of case for their boy, I can only conclude that neither is he going to be worth taking at # 2 in the first round. From what I've been able to conclude the Crabtreers are just in love with him because he put up a bunch of flossy numbers in a bogus college offense and in a conference that plays defense about as well.. as...the...Rams...do. (Gosh, that was tough to admit that!)

    BTW I'm in the process of also being converted back to Eugene Monroe ( I read your latest thread-good job). After looking into Mr. Crabbie, Monroe is looking better all the time.

    WHAT SAY YE?
    Pleas tell me ur never gunna say "what say ye" again.

    Crabtree is worth the 2nd pick. But i think we are going to take Monroe.

    Last year Dorsey was better than Long. But we went for need instead of value. Eventhough we got new front office i still think Monroe is tha guy.




    lol i didn read this fully before answering. So my first few answers were when i thought u wanted to take Maklin with the 2nd pick

  7. #7
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    I would like to challenge all of those who think that M. Crabtree should be the pick to explain why he is clearly better than Jeremy Macklin.
    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    Sorry I haven't reponded sooner, but I was waiting to see if the Crabtreers had anything of importance to say for their boy, and apparently they don't.
    You've basically demonstrated that your mind is already made up about Crabtree; thus, it's probably for the best that the "Crabtreers" didn't waste their time trying to convince you otherwise about something you've already decided on.

  8. #8
    fearnobeer_99 is offline Registered User
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    if thier going wide out harvin from florida would be a better choice. good hands and blazing speed to strech the d. oh he returns kicks to

  9. #9
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    2006 - REDSHIRTED

    2007 - 134 receptions, 1,962 yards, 22 touchdowns

    2008 - 93 receptions, 1,135 yards, 18 touchdowns

    He runs a 4.5 - 40 yard sprint. That by no means, do I consider a "slow" run. Is it a 4.3? No, but you don't need another 4.3. That difference is so franctional that it is impossible to judge without a stopwatch (and I'm sure some people still wouldn't be able to)

    Height 6'3''. Compared to a 6'0'' even? Seriously, we need to get some size in our receiving squad. We need that receiver who can do everything on the field, and make plays. Whoever said possession (NOT POSSECION...What the heck is that?) doesn't understand what Crabtree does. It is more fair to call him an "Every Down Receiver". He runs routes better than the rest, he is actually quick in gametime situation (not a professional track, with track spikes, and zero clothes on. This is the NFL, there are pads, there are defenders, and you are on some pretty crappy surfaces at times) Oh wait, he's 6'3'', stronger, and a little more muscular than that 6'0'' guy they're talking about? Oh yeah, that extra size and strength will come in handy when they need to be lugging pads and helmets around while still trying to run that irrelevant 40-yard-dash. I've seen Crabtree play, and I am in no way a Tex Tech fan. But point-blank to you, You don't become a "Playmaker" if you are slow, or not good enough. If you don't fit the mix, you are a "Possession" receiver, or a "Clutch" receiver. (No clutch does not imply "Playmaker" status, there is a difference.)

    Take what Randy Moss, and Plaxico Burress did to their respected teams, and eliminate the drama and problems. That is what Crabtree is offering. In the Redzone, it is no longer a run only option, you have a WR now, who is just as good as a TE in that situation, but with better hands, better "Ups", and more speed. He can get beat up and stick to routes, and that is important when trying to score. The team needs that attribute in the end-zone.

    So, if you ask me who I want on our side of the ball, when we are pushing our way down field, I will assure you, it is the more experienced WR, who has more passes caught, and more touchdowns, and more size, and more determination to find the end-zone, and more knowledge of coverage, and simply put...more heart. That's what Crabtree brings to the plate, a hard working receiver who carried his team and quarterback through the season, and knows how to make all the plays.

    P.S. Over 3,000 yards, and 40 touchdowns in 2 years. 2 YEARS!!!!
    Last edited by A-Web; -02-07-2009 at 09:57 AM.

  10. #10
    Chase the Eagles Fan's Avatar
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    3,000 yards and 40 touchdowns...yeah in Texas Tech's deadly spread offense that rarely cranks out NFL talent from it though posting eye popping numbers every year...

    I like Crabtree...how can you not? I like Maclin and Raji and Monroe, etc. etc...there are some guys out there that I'm not as big on as other people (Maualuga, Cushing, etc) but I'm not a guy that thinks he's smarter than the GM's in the league and I kinda let them make the decisions for me...I'll look at the history, how did similar selections or strategies in the past pan out now, etc, etc...if a team goes another direction than what I think is right (like my team often does) I don't just write it off as a dumb move...instead I'll try to find the logic they used and learn from it.

    I've said this before, only two teams since 1999 have selected wide receivers in the Top 10 and went on to do anything significant, which in my opinion is going to a Conference Championship game or better...

    You guys selected Torry Holt in 1999 (?) went to a couple Super Bowls and won one...the Cardinals selected Fitz with the 3rd overall pick in 2004 and went to this last Super Bowl...

    Think back at all the teams that selected receiver that early in the draft and all of them have struck out.

    Miami selects Tedd Ginn Jr. #9 overall and wins one game...a team that was rebuilding had to burn and rebuild again...the head coach was fired, the entire front office was fired, the quarterback we bench..everything flipped upside down.

    The same draft, the Lions selected Calvin Johnson with the #3 overall pick and finished 7-9..the following year went 0-16. The head coach gets fired, the coordinators are gone, everything flipped upside down.

    The same draft...the ***** used their 6th overall pick on playmaking tight end Vernon Davis...that head coach didn't last 2 seasons after that and teh ***** continued to finish with losing seasons since...

    In 2005, the Cleveland Browns selected Braylon Edwards with the 3rd overall pick...still haven't earned a playoff berth.

    The same draft, Troy Williamson to Minnesota 7th overall and Mike Williams to Detroit 10th overall..the Vikings are on their way to becoming a good team and perhaps one quarterback short from being a true contender...but if Aaron Rogers was selected instead of Troy Williamson, who knows?

    Even of the two times where selected a wide receiver in the Top 10 actually panned out...the coaching staff that brought in Fitz has since been replaced...

    I think the past shows me that if your bad enough to be selecting in the Top 10 in the draft you shouldn't be thinking about a wide receiver no matter how much of a "duh" pick it is...

    back to the main topic though...things change when you get to the NFL..you don't get as much seperation as you did in college, the guys in the NFL tackle a little better and everybody is faster...Crabtree's style with his body type has a good chance of not panning out on the next level...to think he's going to get a 7 yard pass and at 6'3 be shifty and quick enough to make NFL safeties and linebackers miss and use his 4.55 speed to out run corners of "go routes" is unlikely...I like him but I don't think it's a slam dunk like everyone else thinks..

    The other thing about quick, speed receivers being a dime a dozen in the draft and poseession recievers being rarer isn't necessarily true...it's just that small speedy wide receivers are more commonly translate their ability well to the NFL than the slower posession receivers do...it's not like there haven't been posession guys in the past drafts that everybody thought was going to be just great in the NFL and they just turned out to be turds...

    remember all of those Top 10 selected draft busts that we have seen over the last 10 years were all STUDS in the draft...Crabtree-like lay-ups...EASY...

    But even the guys that have panned out haven't helped their teams do anything but sell jerseys and tickets.

  11. #11
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chase the Eagles Fan View Post
    I've said this before, only two teams since 1999 have selected wide receivers in the Top 10 and went on to do anything significant
    Quote Originally Posted by Chase the Eagles Fan View Post
    Think back at all the teams that selected receiver that early in the draft and all of them have struck out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chase the Eagles Fan View Post
    I think the past shows me that if your bad enough to be selecting in the Top 10 in the draft you shouldn't be thinking about a wide receiver no matter how much of a "duh" pick it is...
    I think you're coming at this from kind of a strange angle. As in, you're looking at one variable, then looking at team success, and then concluding that teams don't succeed when they add the original variable. The truth of the matter is there are numerous other variables that play a part in a team's success; correlating it to a Top 10 WR doesn't strike me as very logical.

    I agree that you can certainly find a fair share of Top 10 receivers that have busted out in this league. But I think when you only focus on team success, you downplay the impact that many of these guys have had on their organizations. I give you credit for shaping your message with information that supports your argument while not mentioning that which doesn't. But in this case, I think you're trying to correlate a variable and an outcome that really don't necessarily go together, and I think examining the information that you've chosen not to include demonstrates why that might be. I'll elaborate.

    Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are already two of the best receivers in this league. Both were taken in the top three of their respective draft classes. Ask any GM in this league if he wants either of them, and you'll get 31 that say yes and one that says he'd never give him up. Yet their teams haven't really had much success, and because of that, your post seems to suggest they haven't worked out. I don't think there are many that would say that's because they drafted a WR in the top round.

    Since drafting Braylon Edwards, the Cleveland Browns haven't gotten over the hump and into the playoffs yet, you're right. But Edwards was a big factor in Cleveland's first double-digit winning season since 1994. Additionally, the Steelers drafted Plaxico Burress in 2000, after winning only six and seven games the two seasons beforehand. Burress led the team in receiving in his second year, which saw the Steelers back in the playoffs. Burress eventually left Pittsburgh and was instrumental in helping the New York Giants get their Super Bowl ring in 2007.

    Ultimately whether or not a team goes on to have success is dependent on a number of things. Wide receivers can make a large difference on a team, but they can't carry it by themselves. Putting a wide receiver on a losing team with questionable coaching isn't going to suddenly turn that team into a winner. But if you have quality people running the organization (which I think the Rams do now), a quality coaching staff (I think Spags and company have as much potential as anyone), and the team improves in other areas, then having that receiver in the mix is going to bring about rewards down the road (see Arizona w/ Fitzgerald). If the Texans or Lions are able to improve their teams and find some success, you can bet Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are going to play significant roles in that success.

    What you described when talking about the Ted Ginn situation essentially proves my point. It wasn't the selection of Ginn that prevented Miami from succeeding but rather factors that went all the way into the front office and coaching.

    By the way, I'd take Crabtree as a prospect over at least half of the receivers we've seen go in the top ten over the last decade, if not more. As someone who has followed the draft pretty closely for a number of years, I really disagree with your statement that all of the Top 10 receivers were viewed as being studs and easy can't miss picks.

  12. #12
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    Possession receivers are easier to find, but not necessarily the ones like Crabtree. There is something to be said for having a player who makes catches regardless of whether he's covered because he's strong enough he can't be bumped off his route and has the size and leaping ability to bring down the ball even when a defender is in his way. I think the argument would be not just that he makes catches, but that he can come through in clutch situations. On 3rd and 5, you don't need a guy who can get open downfield. You just need someone who can win the jump ball. Same thing with goal line situations. Speed is going to be of limited use when there's nowhere to run.
    All well and good Goldie, but do we really want to expend the 2nd pick in the draft for a guy who appears to be just a possession-type of receiver? I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree on this issue for now until someone posts some kind of evidence or we are illuminated by some facts that would show that Crabtree is more than just another move-the-chains type of receiver.

    WHAT SAY YE?

  13. #13
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    You've basically demonstrated that your mind is already made up about Crabtree; thus, it's probably for the best that the "Crabtreers" didn't waste their time trying to convince you otherwise about something you've already decided on.

    Well, Nick you are mistaken and unfortunately you have missed the entire point of this thread. If my mind was already made up I wouldn't have wasted MY TIME posting this thread in the first place. Judging from the paucity of evidence presented to date concerning Crabtree's perceived value as the 2nd pick overall, it is apparent to me that the Crab-ites are the ones that have their minds made up already. I.E. they all seem to love this guy but are not able or willing to give any reasons why.

    However, having said all of that, I remain open to hear any clear and cogent arguments that may be presented regarding this issue.

    I wonder if the "Crabtreers" can say the same?

    WHAT SAY YE?

  14. #14
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    Well, Nick you are mistaken and unfortunately you have missed the entire point of this thread. If my mind was already made up I wouldn't have wasted MY TIME posting this thread in the first place.
    Maybe I am mistaken, but I'm just calling it how I see it. When you respond to one person trying to answer your challenge by stating that "slow possession receivers like Crabs are available every year" and then say they're a dime-a-dozen, then yep, seems to me your mind is made up.

    If you're truly interested in a compelling argument about Crabtree, I'd direct you here...

    Michael Crabtree - Should we draft him??

    ...and here...

    Interesting article on Crabtree (reportedly won't run 40-yard @ the combine)

    I actually don't think there's a large gap between Crabtree and Maclin; barring the unforeseen, I would expect both of them to go in the top ten. But as I see it, Crabtree is just an incredible talent. He's the first ever two-time Biletnikoff Award winner, and he did it as a freshman and sophomore despite not playing WR in high school. Meaning for as dominant as he's been at Texas Tech, he's still learning the position with room to get better.

    While Maclin has the edge in top end speed, I think there are a number of areas where I'd give Crabtree the advantage. First and foremost is size and physicality. I don't know if Crabtree's 6'3" listed height holds up at the combine, but he'll still have a couple of inches on Maclin and I think is the more physical of the two receivers. He's better at shielding DBs from the ball and playing the ball in the air. I actually think it's a bit of a push when it comes to open field elusiveness, as I feel Crabtree's elusiveness as an open field runner is underrated because some tend to focus on his speed. On top of that, I think Crabtree does a better job fighting through tackles to gain yards after the catch. However, I think Maclin's combination of speed and open field elusiveness makes him a bigger threat to score on any given play that Crabtree is. Neither of them are polished route runners, but I expect that's an area they'll both be able to improve on as they grow. Both of them can make great catches, but I'd probably give Crabtree the edge as a more consistent pass catcher.

    There are two real knocks against Crabtree, IMO. And I don't think either are significant. The first is his speed, as many assume his forty time will be average or pedestrian. Let's recall that Fitzgerald ran a 4.6 as a rookie at the combine, and it didn't dissuade Arizona from taking him third overall because of his incredible skills. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of NFL receivers succeeding despite not being the fastest guy on the field. Crabtree's style of play and skill set is not dependent on blazing speed. He has the toughness, ball skills, and body control to make the tough catches even if his speed hasn't separated him as much from NFL defenders as you'd like.

    The second knock is his route running, because the Texas Tech offense does not incorporate a large number of pro routes. But I'd counter that weakness by pointing back to all of the things Crabtree has accomplished despite only playing two years at the position in college. He doesn't have a long résumé at the position but still has managed to become one of the most prolific wide receivers college football has seen in a long time. The quickness in which he made an impact at the college level, to me, suggests that he'll be able to pick up and fine tune his route running as a pro. Plus, as he improves his route running, sharp cuts and explosion out of his breaks will help create separation, which kind of goes back to the first weakness.

    So now, I've surely taken more time to respond to your challenge than you did actually posting it. We'll see if it was time wasted or time well spent.

  15. #15
    Shan the Ram Man's Avatar
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Well , I like Crabtree. He is as you all know 6' 3" 215LBS to 220LBS. WR's like Bolden and T. Owens can catch the ball over the middle and move the chains. You are not going to arm tackle a bigger WR. Press coverage at the line of scrimage is going to be harder on a big WR. Just think yards after the catch or yards after contact.

    I still hope the rams trade down and take B.J. Raji DT in round 1. The Defence needs alot of help. DT,SS,MLB,DE,CB.

    Defence builds Championships ! !

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