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  1. #16
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    All well and good Goldie, but do we really want to expend the 2nd pick in the draft for a guy who appears to be just a possession-type of receiver? I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree on this issue for now until someone posts some kind of evidence or we are illuminated by some facts that would show that Crabtree is more than just another move-the-chains type of receiver.

    WHAT SAY YE?

    What says me? What says ME? This I SAY!

    Arizona Cardinals receiver Larry Fitzgerald is having the postseason of a career. He has more receiving yards (419) than even Jerry Rice had in a single postseason. He has been to three Pro Bowls in five seasons. Draft analysts are comparing Michael Crabtree to Fitzgerald when Fitzgerald was coming out of Pittsburgh, the highest compliment Crabtree could receive. The Texas Tech receiver left after his sophomore season, just like Fitzgerald. He caught 231 passes for 3,127 yards and 41 touchdowns in 26 games, bettering the 161 catches, 2,677 yards and 34 touchdowns Fitzgerald had in his 26 games. Crabtree twice won the Biletnikoff Award as the nation’s best receiver; Fitzgerald won it once. Fitzgerald was second in Heisman voting his second season at Pittsburgh; Crabtree was fifth this year. Crabtree is 6-foot-3, 214 pounds, close to Fitzgerald’s build (6-3, 220), and he isn’t expected to run fast at his pro day. Fitzgerald ran a 4.55 at his pro day. "When Larry Fitzgerald came out, the question was: How fast is he? Can he separate?" NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock said. "He only ran 4.50, 4.51 at his pro day at Pittsburgh, but his ball skills were so extraordinary that it was one of the rare occasions where the pros looked beyond the timed 40 and said, 'This guy’s got something special.’ "... From a talent perspective, Crabtree has special skills. He can go get the football. He seems to run as fast as he needs to run. He’s physical; he’s tough; and he goes and gets the football. I think Fitzgerald is a real good prototype for him." - Charean Williams, Star-Telegram

    - Mic check. Testing. Testing. 1.2.3. Oh wait, he's compared to Fitzgerald. Oh look, Fitzgerald ran around the same 40 time. Oh wait, he scored more, and ran more than Fitzgerald. Is Fitzgerald only good for possession receiving? Is Fitzgerald too slow to beat the secondary? Oh wait, wasn't Fitzgerald in the Superbowl? Didn't he like...you know, burn past the entire Steelers secondary right up the middle? And then, proceeded to outrun them all the way down the field? And...correct me if I am wrong, didn't he just break the single post-season TD reception record? The man is a scoring machine, and, with the only comparable material available at this time, Crabtree is already in line to outproduce him, based on his two college years.

    Maybe he will be better than Fitzgerald, maybe he won't. Am I all "goo-goo-gah-gah" over him? No. But this forum came up, and I had an opinion between the two, and so I am bringing the facts to back up the reasoning behind my opinion.

    If the Rams draft Crabtree, in another 3-5 years, I hope we don't have to call Crabtree "better than Fitzgerald," I want to be able to call him our Star Receiver. OUR receiver. Then I don't have to feel jealous of Calvin Johnson, or Andre Johnson, or TO, or Randy Moss, or Plaxico Burress, or Larry Fitzgerald, because the RAMS will have the star receiver, (and maybe not the baggage that sometimes frequents them).

    There's my 10 dollars worth. Hope it goes some way towards at least explaining why Crabtree has the opinion in most peoples minds that he does.


  2. #17
    djdeeznutz Guest

    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    All well and good Goldie, but do we really want to expend the 2nd pick in the draft for a guy who appears to be just a possession-type of receiver? I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree on this issue for now until someone posts some kind of evidence or we are illuminated by some facts that would show that Crabtree is more than just another move-the-chains type of receiver.

    WHAT SAY YE?
    What's so bad about a "move-the-chains" type reciver cuz if he keeps the chains moving we get a TD and isnt that the way you win a football game?

    Crabtree is not just a possession-type reciver he he a breaking tackles like a RB type WR too.

  3. #18
    djdeeznutz Guest

    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    Well, Nick you are mistaken and unfortunately you have missed the entire point of this thread. If my mind was already made up I wouldn't have wasted MY TIME posting this thread in the first place. Judging from the paucity of evidence presented to date concerning Crabtree's perceived value as the 2nd pick overall, it is apparent to me that the Crab-ites are the ones that have their minds made up already. I.E. they all seem to love this guy but are not able or willing to give any reasons why.

    However, having said all of that, I remain open to hear any clear and cogent arguments that may be presented regarding this issue.

    I wonder if the "Crabtreers" can say the same?

    WHAT SAY YE?
    How are we not giving u enuff all the "crabtreers" gave u way more evidence then u are giving us about Maklin.

    I get what ur sayin: Crabtree dont deserve to be #2. But actually he does it is not like he has Tight End Speed he has average WR speed and above average and everything else. HE will be great.

    I am willing to listen to as long as u say why Maklin is better than Crabtree not just say we arent giving u enuff cuz u aint give us ****.

  4. #19
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable View Post
    All well and good Goldie, but do we really want to expend the 2nd pick in the draft for a guy who appears to be just a possession-type of receiver? I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree on this issue for now until someone posts some kind of evidence or we are illuminated by some facts that would show that Crabtree is more than just another move-the-chains type of receiver.

    WHAT SAY YE?
    Oh, I'm not saying I want to expend the 2nd pick in the draft on a receiver of any stripe. My point was more about the limited value of labels. It seems to me that the argument for Maclin over Crabtree proceeds something like this:

    "No possession receiver is worthy of being taken 2nd overall in the draft. Crabtree is a possession receiver, ergo he is not worthy of being taken 2nd overall in the draft."

    The problem with that logic is that the label "possession receiver" is just a stereotype. It doesn't take into account the entirety of a player's skills, most noticeably that some players who carry that label pick up lots of yardage after the catch. I think it would be a gross understatement to suggest that a player who was named the best receiver in college football two years in a row is just another "move-the-chains" receiver.

  5. #20
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by nutz
    Crabtree makes it happen with spin and jukes and get the tough yards. Macklin speeds to get it. Also it is pretty easy to cover Avery and Macklin if you know they will be running go routes.
    Guess you didn't get many Mizzou games up in Jersey, huh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    The second knock is his route running, because the Texas Tech offense does not incorporate a large number of pro routes.
    And, of course, that is the same offense and conference as Maclin, which makes me wonder why Maclin isn't getting some of those same criticisms. Just as Avery last year, I have to wonder how Maclin's game translates in pro routes.


    Bottomline: I would take neither with the #2 pick. The irony is that both end up in the NFC-W; one a Hawk, the other a whiner.

    As to the differences, Avery obviously has the better top end speed and long-field separation, but Crabtree works better in traffic and short yardage situations. Crabtree is more physical and will post better after contact yardage. Maclin gives a team more "ball in hands" options; reverses, quick screens, etc. As well, Maclin adds the dimension of return man.

    Ultimately, I think as a pure receiver, Crabtree probably offers the better pro option, but I still wouldn't take either with the #2. Trade down a couple of spots, take Crabtree. Trade down maybe 5 or so spots, take Maclin.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #21
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Maybe I am mistaken, but I'm just calling it how I see it. When you respond to one person trying to answer your challenge by stating that "slow possession receivers like Crabs are available every year" and then say they're a dime-a-dozen, then yep, seems to me your mind is made up.

    If you're truly interested in a compelling argument about Crabtree, I'd direct you here...

    Michael Crabtree - Should we draft him??

    ...and here...

    Interesting article on Crabtree (reportedly won't run 40-yard @ the combine)

    I actually don't think there's a large gap between Crabtree and Maclin; barring the unforeseen, I would expect both of them to go in the top ten. But as I see it, Crabtree is just an incredible talent. He's the first ever two-time Biletnikoff Award winner, and he did it as a freshman and sophomore despite not playing WR in high school. Meaning for as dominant as he's been at Texas Tech, he's still learning the position with room to get better.

    While Maclin has the edge in top end speed, I think there are a number of areas where I'd give Crabtree the advantage. First and foremost is size and physicality. I don't know if Crabtree's 6'3" listed height holds up at the combine, but he'll still have a couple of inches on Maclin and I think is the more physical of the two receivers. He's better at shielding DBs from the ball and playing the ball in the air. I actually think it's a bit of a push when it comes to open field elusiveness, as I feel Crabtree's elusiveness as an open field runner is underrated because some tend to focus on his speed. On top of that, I think Crabtree does a better job fighting through tackles to gain yards after the catch. However, I think Maclin's combination of speed and open field elusiveness makes him a bigger threat to score on any given play that Crabtree is. Neither of them are polished route runners, but I expect that's an area they'll both be able to improve on as they grow. Both of them can make great catches, but I'd probably give Crabtree the edge as a more consistent pass catcher.

    There are two real knocks against Crabtree, IMO. And I don't think either are significant. The first is his speed, as many assume his forty time will be average or pedestrian. Let's recall that Fitzgerald ran a 4.6 as a rookie at the combine, and it didn't dissuade Arizona from taking him third overall because of his incredible skills. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of NFL receivers succeeding despite not being the fastest guy on the field. Crabtree's style of play and skill set is not dependent on blazing speed. He has the toughness, ball skills, and body control to make the tough catches even if his speed hasn't separated him as much from NFL defenders as you'd like.

    The second knock is his route running, because the Texas Tech offense does not incorporate a large number of pro routes. But I'd counter that weakness by pointing back to all of the things Crabtree has accomplished despite only playing two years at the position in college. He doesn't have a long résumé at the position but still has managed to become one of the most prolific wide receivers college football has seen in a long time. The quickness in which he made an impact at the college level, to me, suggests that he'll be able to pick up and fine tune his route running as a pro. Plus, as he improves his route running, sharp cuts and explosion out of his breaks will help create separation, which kind of goes back to the first weakness.

    So now, I've surely taken more time to respond to your challenge than you did actually posting it. We'll see if it was time wasted or time well spent.
    Thank you for your informative and well-reasoned post. I will take it under advisement.

    See, that wasn't so hard now was it?

    WHAT SAY YE?

  7. #22
    djdeeznutz Guest

    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Guess you didn't get many Mizzou games up in Jersey, huh.
    lol no not really. I also did not get many Rams games the only ones i got was vs. the Eagles (i also get to see there games alot) jets, and Giants

  8. #23
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    Re: If Rams pick WR in First why is Crabtree better....

    Quote Originally Posted by djdeeznutz View Post
    lol no not really. I also did not get many Rams games the only ones i got was vs. the Eagles (i also get to see there games alot) jets, and Giants
    Eagles, Jets, & Giants? Arguably the three crappiest of games in this crappiest of seasons.

    I'm depressed FOR you! At least, I got to see the two wins!
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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