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Thread: JD Clowney anyone?

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    Not exactly with the #2 pick, but I believe you know what I mean.
    Sure I do, but you can't just ignore that we're talking about the second overall pick here.

    Since the prime example that pro-Clowney people want to point to is the Giants, let's look at Mathias Kiwanuka. He was a great luxury pick for the Giants because they were a playoff team and held the 32nd overall pick that year after trading down from 25th overall.

    A luxury pick is fine IMO, if made under the right circumstances. But using the second overall pick isn't the right circumstance to make that kind of pick, which is why you'll be hard pressed to find recent examples of teams doing that.


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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    For the sake of playing devil's advocate to further discussion and banter...

    A week ago I was entrenched in the mindset of trading down from our current spot, racking up more draft picks for the future and taking Jake Matthews. Since then I have wavered slightly. We have another first round pick at our disposal and this has the potential to be a deep class at OT (depending on how many underclassmen declare). Matthews, Lewan, Robinson, Erving, Kouandijo, and Richardson are just some names who can all go in the first thirty-two picks. Our own draft choice (not from Washington) currently sits mid-round, so we might be able to snag one there if Fisher opts to go in that direction. We would still be able to draft a game changer like Clowney and fill our need along the offensive line with that second first rounder.

    As some have mentioned, Chris Long's play has fallen off to a degree this season. To cut him now wouldn't produce many savings and I also think it wouldn't benefit Clowney (if we selected him). Give Jadeveon a year to play in rotation behind Long and Quinn, pick up some little nuances and he'll be much more refined and ready to take the starting job the following off season. I really believe regardless if we take Clowney or not, Long should be cut so we can use that money to re-sign Quinn. Selecting Clowney also guards against Quinn bolting town for a massive contract and gives us a potentially premier pass rusher for the next 5-6 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    With the second overall pick? Please, let's hear some.
    It just happened two years ago. Denver selected Von Miller second overall when they already had Elvis Dumervil on the roster who had produced seasons of 12.0 and 17.0 sacks. Granted he was coming off major injury, but they had a much greater need at DT and everyone and their grandma was mocking Marcel Dareus to them. If not for that contractual gaff this past off season, they'd still have one of the best DE tandems in the league. I think that could definitely be called a luxury pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why such an outstanding prospect has been so ineffective this year.
    It is not always about the stats. Clowney has been getting double and triple-teamed this year, to the point where the teams gameplan was to not let him beat them. Teams in the NFL would rarely be able to get away with all the attention he was given this year. It also has to do with him being nicked up here and there and sitting out a couple of games. Point is, his impact on a game hasn't shown up on the stat sheet like it did last season. I'm sure he'll be able to answer the questions about his passion, dedication and work ethic when the draft rolls around.

    Who knows...maybe after Sunday the decision is taken out of our hands with a Redskins win. That will make Jake Matthews a slam dunk pick IMO. But if we stay at #2, we have a bunch of different directions we can go. It'll be nothing short of interesting from here until May.
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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    so people really do want to take a risk on a guy who doesn't work to get better in college...and will have absolutely zero incentive to get better with NFL money...unless he wanted to keep playing but i don't see him being concerned about that

    i just can't seem to want a guy who's in a position that is not in need and doesn't want to put in the work

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by citr92 View Post
    so people really do want to take a risk on a guy who doesn't work to get better in college...and will have absolutely zero incentive to get better with NFL money...unless he wanted to keep playing but i don't see him being concerned about that

    i just can't seem to want a guy who's in a position that is not in need and doesn't want to put in the work
    Where did it ever say he doesn't work to get better? The thing people are saying is he's taking plays off, but unfortunately for those people, every single defensive lineman in the league takes a play off here or there. I've even seen Quinn at the end of games (4th Quarter last drive type of stuff) where he barely even stands up from out of his 3 point stance. Lots of times this kind of stuff happens.

    So in 2012 Clowney is some unreal prospect with a great work ethic and a guy who works hard every play to finish, then all of a sudden next year he is suspect in work ethic and hangs around with the wrong people and doesn't care? BS.

    He was injured, apparently needs surgery now, is getting double and tripled, and have plays designed to roll the other way of Clowney, and suddenly he doesn't try hard enough or doesn't care? Wow.
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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    I'm sure whatever red flags Clowney has the Rams staff find during the interviewing process. I attribute most of his character concerns to him just being young and immature, which is expected when your only 20 years old. I don't think the Rams will automatically throw Clowney's name off their draft board just because they have Chris Long on their team. Chris will be 29 at the start of next year and he's being payed pretty big money. I could be wrong, but I think his contract is guaranteed until 2015 but the Rams have the option of waiving him at the end of 2014 without having any dead money on the books, which at that time he will be approaching the age of 30. If Clowney were to absolutely crush it at the combine and the Texans passed him up, I could see the Rams drafting him at #2 and let him sit on depth charts until Long restructures or is released at the end of next year. Well, either that or trade the #2 pick for a bounty of picks

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    A week ago I was entrenched in the mindset of trading down from our current spot, racking up more draft picks for the future and taking Jake Matthews. Since then I have wavered slightly. We have another first round pick at our disposal and this has the potential to be a deep class at OT (depending on how many underclassmen declare). Matthews, Lewan, Robinson, Erving, Kouandijo, and Richardson are just some names who can all go in the first thirty-two picks. Our own draft choice (not from Washington) currently sits mid-round, so we might be able to snag one there if Fisher opts to go in that direction. We would still be able to draft a game changer like Clowney and fill our need along the offensive line with that second first rounder.
    That's a fair argument, but I think Fisher is going to significantly prefer the opportunity to select the son of a former player he coached than another nondescript tackle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    It just happened two years ago. Denver selected Von Miller second overall when they already had Elvis Dumervil on the roster who had produced seasons of 12.0 and 17.0 sacks.
    Having one pass rusher doesn't make the selection of a second pass rusher a luxury pick. The Broncos had nothing in the pass rush department besides Dumervil and only boasted marginal talent at OLB. That's why, unlike typical luxury picks, Miller was a starter as soon as he hit the field.


    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    So in 2012 Clowney is some unreal prospect with a great work ethic and a guy who works hard every play to finish, then all of a sudden next year he is suspect in work ethic and hangs around with the wrong people and doesn't care? BS.
    If given the choice, I'd much rather Clowney's decline in 2013 be the result of his personal work ethic or fear of injury. That has the chance of being corrected by a hard-nosed coach or good leadership in an organization.

    What would worry me more is the suggestion that Clowney's numbers dropped significantly because college opponents were successfully able to gameplan him out of making a difference. If that can be done in college, then I'd be very worried about it being done at the pro level.
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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    That's a fair argument, but I think Fisher is going to significantly prefer the opportunity to select the son of a former player he coached than another nondescript tackle.
    I agree completely and would be shocked if it didn't play out this way. This is the only problem I have with it...I'm sure many of us remember FOSL (Friends of Scott Linehan). Jeff Fisher has never selected an OT in the first round in any draft. This may very well become a footnote in a few months time, but I really hope it isn't because his father Bruce played under Fisher that gives Matthews a leg up on everyone else. It should be because of his play and performance on the field. He just drafted TJ McDonald this past year with whom he and his dad are friends. It's nice to give them some dap, but that should not factor into the equation. I am not saying Matthews is not a great prospect because he sure as heck is (I think he's just behind Clowney for best in this class), however it peeves me when this is tossed around because it's like saying "no wonder Fisher took Jake, he knew his father." That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Having one pass rusher doesn't make the selection of a second pass rusher a luxury pick. The Broncos had nothing in the pass rush department besides Dumervil and only boasted marginal talent at OLB. That's why, unlike typical luxury picks, Miller was a starter as soon as he hit the field.
    IMO when that selection is the second overall pick it does. You had another player of arguably equal value and greater need in Marcel Dareus sitting right there staring you in the face. Just like you said we can address a developmental DE to groom under Long who might depart sometime soon, they could've chosen to do the same thing later in the draft. They also had Robert Ayers on their roster who they selected in the first round two years prior. I know this probably won't change your mind but I think it's clearly a luxury pick.
    Last edited by Bald_81; -12-28-2013 at 07:38 PM.

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    Where did it ever say he doesn't work to get better? The thing people are saying is he's taking plays off, but unfortunately for those people, every single defensive lineman in the league takes a play off here or there. I've even seen Quinn at the end of games (4th Quarter last drive type of stuff) where he barely even stands up from out of his 3 point stance. Lots of times this kind of stuff happens.

    So in 2012 Clowney is some unreal prospect with a great work ethic and a guy who works hard every play to finish, then all of a sudden next year he is suspect in work ethic and hangs around with the wrong people and doesn't care? BS.

    He was injured, apparently needs surgery now, is getting double and tripled, and have plays designed to roll the other way of Clowney, and suddenly he doesn't try hard enough or doesn't care? Wow.
    just never saw him live up to the hype, if he had he would have a TFL almost every play

    but i haven't seen that, just one play over and over and over of him going unblocked and blowing up a RB...woopdy freakin do so have a lot of other defensive guys

    and i'm not the only person acknowledging his lack of work ethic, just look around, you'll see many question it

    i believe clowney even admitted that he didn't practice hard last year...don't know how you could work around that

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    I agree completely and would be shocked if it didn't play out this way. This is the only problem I have with it...I'm sure many of us remember FOSL (Friends of Scott Linehan). Jeff Fisher has never selected an OT in the first round in any draft. This may very well become a footnote in a few months time, but I really hope it isn't because his father Bruce played under Fisher that gives Matthews a leg up on everyone else. It should be because of his play and performance on the field. He just drafted TJ McDonald this past year with whom he and his dad are friends. It's nice to give them some dap, but that should not factor into the equation. I am not saying Matthews is not a great prospect because he sure as heck is (I think he's just behind Clowney for best in this class), however it peeves me when this is tossed around because it's like saying "no wonder Fisher took Jake, he knew his father." That's all.
    I don't think that's the sole reason. I think that gives an advantage towards Jake if only because it means Fisher has a more in-depth knowledge about his family life, upbringing, and character than he likely does any of the other prospects. Matthews wouldn't be in the conversation if his play didn't warrant it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    IMO when that selection is the second overall pick it does. You had another player of arguably equal value and greater need in Marcel Dareus sitting right there staring you in the face. Just like you said we can address a developmental DE to groom under Long who might depart sometime soon, they could've chosen to do the same thing later in the draft. They also had Robert Ayers on their roster who they selected in the first round two years prior. I know this probably won't change your mind but I think it's clearly a luxury pick.
    No, it won't, because my definition of a luxury pick is one which is made at a position that is a strength of the team, and thus improving it is a luxury rather than a priority or a need. That does not describe the situation in Denver when Von Miller was selected.

    The Broncos were transitioning to a four man front under newly hired head coach John Fox, and had only one effective defensive end in Dumervil and only one quality linebacker in D.J. Williams. You bring up Ayers being there, but his failure to develop into a capable starter is one big reason why the selection of Miller wasn't a luxury but filled a clear need at the position.

    Yes, Marcel Dareus filled a need for the team as well, but that in and of itself doesn't make Miller a luxury pick, as Denver had more needs than just DT. In fact, I don't think they even drafted a DT that year, so maybe they would have disagreed about it being the kind of need you feel it was.

    Again, there is a reason that Miller was inserted into Denver' starting line-up from Day One; had he been a luxury pick, that wouldn't have happened because he would have been sharing time as a situational player behind other established players at the position.

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    I believe all the hype about Jadaveon Clowney's work ethic is just that, hype.

    I believe Clowney played this season with his former teammate's (Marcus Lattimore) devastating knee injury in the back of his mind, and decided not to risk himself as much at times.

    With seemingly a top 5 selection all but wrapped up going into this season, the last thing he wanted was to be carried off the field like Lattimore.

    He'll probably never admit it, but it certainly seems logical to me.

    Of course the media will flip anything they can get their hands on and the hype got out of control.

    My guess is, if Clowney would've been eligle for last year's draft we would've never heard about his so-called lack of motivation, or questions about his work ethic.

    That's just my two cents.

    Having said all that, he'll be the perfect player to be available (if we can manage to remain in the 2 slot) because he'll be just the kind of player that teams will trade up for.

    So whether we take him or not, he'll certainly play a key part in our draft IMO.
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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Yes, Marcel Dareus filled a need for the team as well, but that in and of itself doesn't make Miller a luxury pick, as Denver had more needs than just DT. In fact, I don't think they even drafted a DT that year, so maybe they would have disagreed about it being the kind of need you feel it was.
    You made a very compelling argument until you wrote this. That's laughable. You as well as anyone should know that GMs, evaluators, scouts, etc. should never force anything. They stick to their board and trust their rankings of each player. Miller was clearly graded out as a better player than Dareus and he was ultimately the selection. That does not change the glaring need they had at DT nor does it mean they would HAVE to select one with any of their remaining picks.

    The Rams needed a clear compliment to Steven Jackson in 2011 and someone to develop under him. Did they select a RB anywhere in the draft? No. They were forced to sign Cadillac Williams and Jerious Norwood in FA. The Rams were prepared to select either Mychal Kendricks or Bobby Wagner with one of their second round picks in 2012 because of their need for an OLB. However, they gambled trading back and missed out on both of them. Did they select a OLB afterward with any of their remaining picks? No. They waited a full year before taking Alec Ogletree. (And the Broncos took DT Derek Wolfe with their first selection the following year in 2012) Point is you trust your board and don't force things. That does not mean the team does not have a need for a given position.

    Part of me wants the Redskins to take the decision out of our hands and make it easier so we slide down to #4 and select Matthews, but if we stand pat it's going to be a roller coaster of emotions from here until May.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    You made a very compelling argument until you wrote this. That's laughable. You as well as anyone should know that GMs, evaluators, scouts, etc. should never force anything. They stick to their board and trust their rankings of each player. Miller was clearly graded out as a better player than Dareus and he was ultimately the selection. That does not change the glaring need they had at DT nor does it mean they would HAVE to select one with any of their remaining picks.
    Look, we can haggle over the language here and how big of a need DT was for the 2011 Broncos, but I think the overall point of my post is clear and had very little to do with the statement you've decided to focus on.

    The Broncos had a clear need for another starting pass rusher opposite Dumervil as well as a starting outside linebacker. Their need at DT didn't make filling those other holes a luxury.
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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    I think all the negative talk about his work ethic and him taking plays off in college will go out the window once he runs the 40 yard dash in under 4.5 seconds… dude was a monster last year when he likely would have went #1 overall, and he's still the same monster this year. Teams draft on skill set and potential, and no one in this draft has a higher skill set and potential than JadeVeon Clowney.

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    If the Rams needed a DE, I think the good would clearly outweigh question marks. The fact remains, though... DE is not a need position.

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    If the Rams needed a DE, I think the good would clearly outweigh question marks. The fact remains, though... DE is not a need position.
    That's the dilemma. I know drafting Matthews would instantly bolster the offensive line and guard against decimating injuries which we seem to face on a yearly basis. But then I think of the potential havoc a defensive line with Quinn, Long and Clowney mixed in could create and I start to salivate...

    Going to be plenty of back and forth in the coming months. We still have the slate of games to get through today before it's all said and done. When it comes down to it though, I really expect us to trade down for additional and/or future picks again (if we stay in the second spot). Even in that scenario we'd be gambling that a team like Atlanta doesn't trade ahead of us to take Matthews. We already saw it happen two seasons ago where we were targeting Blackmon and we gave Jacksonville enough time and preparation to orchestrate a trade to jump ahead of us. In this scenario, we better hope there is a bidding war for the next QB after Bridgewater so we can get a healthy return. Man, I'm so excited right now.

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