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Thread: JD Clowney anyone?

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I"m still waiting for one of the Clowney fans to explain to me how a once in a generation prospect, with freakish size and speed, manages only 3 sacks in his final showcase season before he enters the draft.
    Read on another website he was double and triple teamed on every play. As a Dawg fan I know they had thier share of problems with the guy. Rams are just gonna have to get creative getting him into the D... But it sure would be fun to watch...


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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyramsfan View Post
    Read on another website he was double and triple teamed on every play. As a Dawg fan I know they had thier share of problems with the guy. Rams are just gonna have to get creative getting him into the D... But it sure would be fun to watch...
    I read something earlier about an explanation of Clowney's season By Mel Kiper Jr on ESPN:

    Here are a few things to keep in mind:

    • Production and the draft: Dion Jordan had a total of 5.0 sacks in 2012, and went No. 3 in the draft. In fact, Miami traded up to get him and his pass-rushing potential. Ezekiel Ansahhad 4.5 sacks in 2012 at BYU, and even as an older player, was drafted No. 5 overall by Detroit. A pick later, the Browns took Barkevious Mingo coming off a 4.5-sack season. It wasn't about stats, it was about traits. If you have the talent to be a great NFL pass-rusher you'll go high regardless of your impact on the box score. The NFL is a developmental league, too, and teams draft for talent first.


    • Don't knock the effort: Watching Clowney this season, I never saw a player dogging it, or being too protective of himself, staying away from contact, or anything like that. But could you blame him? He was worth many millions last spring and was essentially forced to return to play for another season. Anybody questioning his competitive integrity should remember he'd still be a first-round pick even if he'd sat out the whole season.


    • Sack totals can lie: Anybody who watched South Carolina this year knows how cognizant offenses were of Clowney. He simply changed the way offenses approached the game plan. And while he came into the Capitol One Bowl with just 3.0 sacks, he has piled up 46 tackles for loss and 24 sacks in his career, and he's still going to get better. Sacks are an indicator, but if teams are determined to keep you from sacking the QB, and it happens every week, the numbers are going to be skewed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post

    ... or was he having a great year? Or an excellent year? it's becoming abundantly clear in this thread that you need to choose your adjectives VERY carefully, pal.
    Only when I'm speaking to those who don't understand English.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyramsfan View Post

    Read on another website he was double and triple teamed on every play. As a Dawg fan I know they had thier share of problems with the guy. Rams are just gonna have to get creative getting him into the D... But it sure would be fun to watch...
    Robert Quinn is double and triple teamed by NFL players, and he had 3 sacks in some games, rather than in a whole year like Clowney. So, I guess Quinn is once in a millennium?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarronWade View Post

    I read something earlier about an explanation of Clowney's season By Mel Kiper Jr on ESPN:
    The three players mentioned all had fairly pedestrian rookie year's.

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    boy, people are all over the place in thinking what kind of play clowney will be

    from bust to solid starter, to above average, to pro-bowler

    almost split in fourths, least for bust and most for pro bowler and above average, but it's close across the board

    haven't seen that before lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyramsfan View Post
    Read on another website he was double and triple teamed on every play.
    He wasn't. And if by some strange chance that hyperbole actually ended up bring true, Wisconsin demonstrated yesterday that you don't have to do that in order to contain him.
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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    He wasn't. And if by some strange chance that hyperbole actually ended up bring true, Wisconsin demonstrated yesterday that you don't have to do that in order to contain him.
    I'm not sure what Mel Kiper was seeing, but what I saw yesterday was a guy who went upright if his initial move didn't beat the blocker. Sure, if unblocked he got into the backfield, but I didn't see a lot of 2nd effort to beat any blockers. Call me McKayla, because I was not impressed. At least not enough so to throw a luxury pick at him.
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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Here's a very fair assessment of Jadeveon Clowney that I'm sure will interest everyone:

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    Here's a very fair assessment of Jadeveon Clowney that I'm sure will interest everyone:

    Great video, but one thing I did notice about him is that his ankle really looked like it bothered him this past year. People think he had a bad year due to him not being motivated (and that might be partly true), but I think with his ankle giving him problems it not only prevented him from playing the way he did last year, but also affected his conditioning as well.
    Last edited by Vinnie25; -01-03-2014 at 06:07 AM.

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    Here's a very fair assessment of Jadeveon Clowney that I'm sure will interest everyone:
    This is basically what the Clowney discussions come down to - the talent is outstanding, but the motivation/work ethic concerns are real.

    So what it boils down to is, what are you comfortable with? Me personally, I have a really hard time feeling comfortable with the idea of spending big resources on prospects who have legitimate concerns about their desire and work ethic, because IMO, it's the desire and work ethic that separate players at the professional level.

    You're never going to reach your potential as a player if you don't have the personal desire and work ethic to hone your craft and become the best you possibly can be. Those traits can also help elevate players with less than ideal physical tools into performing better than they otherwise would.

    Look, I could see Clowney emerging as a Pro Bowl caliber defensive end at the NFL Level because he has the talent to do so. His physical ability is obvious. But if the red flags about his motor end up being true, I could also see him coasting through some average seasons before suddenly blowing up in his contract year to try and ensure a big payday.

    If he played at a position that the Rams were in serious need of, I might be more inclined to take that risk and hope Fisher and his staff could get him playing to his potential. But since he plays a position that is, IMO without question, the strongest on the current roster, I'd rather see the team do something else with that pick.
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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    This is basically what the Clowney discussions come down to - the talent is outstanding, but the motivation/work ethic concerns are real.

    So what it boils down to is, what are you comfortable with? Me personally, I have a really hard time feeling comfortable with the idea of spending big resources on prospects who have legitimate concerns about their desire and work ethic, because IMO, it's the desire and work ethic that separate players at the professional level.

    You're never going to reach your potential as a player if you don't have the personal desire and work ethic to hone your craft and become the best you possibly can be. Those traits can also help elevate players with less than ideal physical tools into performing better than they otherwise would.

    Look, I could see Clowney emerging as a Pro Bowl caliber defensive end at the NFL Level because he has the talent to do so. His physical ability is obvious. But if the red flags about his motor end up being true, I could also see him coasting through some average seasons before suddenly blowing up in his contract year to try and ensure a big payday.

    If he played at a position that the Rams were in serious need of, I might be more inclined to take that risk and hope Fisher and his staff could get him playing to his potential. But since he plays a position that is, IMO without question, the strongest on the current roster, I'd rather see the team do something else with that pick.
    100% I agree that the determination and heart of a player decides their fate. This is where the road splits though. I think the camp that are pro-Clowney believe he is willing and does care and this year was a mix of a bunch of bad things, whereas the non-Clowney camp believe he has work ethic issues and won't live up to his potential.

    I will NEVER knock a person who has doubts about a players potential success due to their inability to work or care, or even have the heart to do it.


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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying that the OP's argument was that if your team is not quarterback needy, you have to take Clowney. Without derailing any further, I think there's a stronger case for need at virtually every position on the offense than there is for defensive line help.

    Motor issues aside, I think that makes it awful hard to take Jadeveon. We could add Michael Strahan in his prime to this team, and how many more wins is that really going to get us with a 30th ranked offense? I feel like that's kind of the elephant in the room here. Do you ever really want to use the 2nd overall pick to add to a position that is already arguably the team's biggest strength regardless of who the prospect is? If we did have three star defensive linemen now, wouldn't we be at least considering the possibility of moving one of them in a trade to maximize the benefit to the team? As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, you're using a premium pick on either a rotational player or a guy who would turn a near Pro Bowl talent on the current roster into a rotational player--either way, the marginal improvement to the team isn't as much as we would want. Or maybe we could just change the whole defensive alignment to 3-4, so that we could have Long at base end with Quinn and Clowney on the field at the same time? Is that really getting us closer to our goal (which is winning games, not trying to figure out how to get the most talented pass rushers on the field at one time)?
    Last edited by Goldenfleece; -01-03-2014 at 05:26 PM.

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    So what it boils down to is, what are you comfortable with? Me personally, I have a really hard time feeling comfortable with the idea of spending big resources on prospects who have legitimate concerns about their desire and work ethic, because IMO, it's the desire and work ethic that separate players at the professional level.

    You're never going to reach your potential as a player if you don't have the personal desire and work ethic to hone your craft and become the best you possibly can be. Those traits can also help elevate players with less than ideal physical tools into performing better than they otherwise would.
    There were a lot of these concerns surrounding Mario Williams as well I remember before he was the first overall pick in the 2006 draft. Here is a long, but in-depth and detailed post made by someone else on another draft forum I visit that you should find interesting Nick:

    I don't know if people really remember Mario Williams and his lack of production during his last season at NC State. He was pretty blatantly not putting in any effort until the end of the season when the talk became so overwhelming - media has changed a lot from now compared to back then; where it takes seven defensive plays before the twitter universe is going bonkers over a hyped-up DE prospect. Everyone wants to be the first to label him overrated or a future bust, or the next JaMarcus Russell type failure.

    But Mario Williams hardly ever showed the explosiveness Clowney has. Williams seemed to get engaged with a linemen and then just hold onto him. It was almost difficult to try to defend Williams' lack of production. He was completely disappearing in games. And he wasn't facing nearly the same amount of attention Clowney currently is. His motor became a legitimate concern because Williams wasn't the type of player that could simply run around OTs consistently. He could speed rush an OT, but he wasn't a Bruce Irvin / Brian Orakpo type that could do it at will. His speed and explosiveness wasn't something he could simply rely on. He needed to use power moves. He needed to use his hands to disengage from blockers. He relied on inside moves to set up his speed rush, which was just above average. Williams wasn't doing any of that in the first half of his final year in college.

    Williams didn't have very good pass rushing technique to begin with. He dominated when he wanted to; on physical ability. Which is why he struggled early in his pro career. He would get punched in the chest / face a lot as a rookie. He got worked over by offensive tackles and looked like he was going to be a bust because he couldn't get close to the QB - I mean not even ******* close. Williams worked on his technique and became a very good pro, who is somehow now considered elite / worthy of a $100 million contract. I didn't consider him an elite prospect in college because of those concerns. And they were major. He should have been much more dominant that he was. He also had two other defensive linemen go in round 1 and another go in round 2. I thought Williams was a Top 5 or Top 10 prospect because he had too much boom or bust.

    I think Clowney is different because he's much leaner and more athletic / quicker on the field. He can beat offensive tackles with a speed rush: quick off the snap, great burst and good balance / strength to get around the edge. It's his best move and it sets up his inside moves. That wasn't Mario Williams in college. Clowney's inside move gets him a lot of sacks and most of his pressures because offensive tackles are constantly worried about the speed rush. Clowney makes tackles defend the edge, which opens up pass rushing options. He can go inside, outside or collapse the pocket. Clowney has good strength and he likes to use the swim move to get inside offensive linemen, especially on run plays. He's hard to center - meaning, he beats tackles inside or outside with his quickness / suddenness. Offensive linemen don't get great blocks on him because of that. Again, not another strength of Mario Williams - that type of quickness. Williams was more of a power rusher who got around an offensive tackle (with speed) on occasion. He also defended the run with proper technique. Not simply going around / avoiding linemen (usually a knock on linebackers who don't like to take on blockers).

    Clowney's strength is rushing the passer. It comes natural to him. You could see it since his freshman year. He has the instincts for it. He can simply get to the QB. I can't put it any better than that. He does play upright and a little too high too often, which may be due to fatigue. But he has success with it at the college level. He might struggle early in his career with his pad level and lack of technique, but I don't see it stopping him from becoming an All-Pro. He's not the run defender Williams showed he could be (or as powerful), but he's very solid in run defense.

    This year, when I've seen him beat, it's because he's not keeping his run lanes or gap discipline. As the season has progressed I think he's feeling the pressure to make the splash plays (sacks, big hits, forced fumbles, hits ten yards in the backfield). A single play against Michigan turned him into a superstar despite having a fairly average game outside of that one single play. It's seems like he's pressing to produce, and it might be hurting his team defense. That's what I saw today against UCF. He was in the backfield, but UCF was gashing South Carolina through his unattended gaps.

    Stamina issues and strength can be greatly improved at the NFL level. He has the frame to add weight. That shouldn't be an issue. It will come down to his work ethic. If he doesn't care, then he's never going to be great. I can't predict that and I won't pretend to. At the end of the day there's nothing in his game that worries me. Certainly nothing physically. He's seeing double teams and triple teams constantly. He's surrounded by a depleted defense that isn't what it was a year or two ago. When you become the focal point of a defense and no one is taking attention away form you, then it's going to be difficult to produce 16 sacks and 25 TFL. He's going to have to be patient and let the game come to him.

    Is he elite? There's nothing he lacks. I'd like to see him use his length better. He never really extends his arms and benches off. He does a good job attacking angles, which comes back to instincts (instead of technique). Technicians in the NFL will be able to stuff those things by washing him down the line or shoving him past the quarterback if he simply attacks one shoulder of the offensive linemen. But that will come with better coaching and experience at the next level. Again, work ethic. Everything is there to be an All-Pro. He's still raw. People have to remember that. He is beating people on pure talent right now more often than not. He has room to improve.
    Also, FWIW Clowney said as of now he is going to wait until after the combine to get surgery to fix his bone spurs. Probably wants to avoid risking having to miss it and he sounds very eager about doing all the drills and putting on a show. Regardless if we take him or not, it would be in our best interest that he tears the roof off of Lucas Oil Stadium because that would only make our pick that much more attractive.

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    Re: JD Clowney anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    There were a lot of these concerns surrounding Mario Williams as well I remember before he was the first overall pick in the 2006 draft. Here is a long, but in-depth and detailed post made by someone else on another draft forum I visit that you should find interesting Nick:
    That is an interesting read, but ultimately, Mario Williams's journey from prospect to player really has nothing to do with Clowney and whether or not he'll be successful. Every case is different, and prospects are their own individuals despite how they might remind us of others from the past.

    In another thread, you pointed out how some people's concerns about Jake Matthews being a right tackle at the pro level resembled criticisms made of Jake Long when he was a prospect. While Long has ended up as a very good pro LT, that itself shouldn't change any evaluations or opinions on Matthews (I don't agree with that criticism of Matthews, but am just using it for the point here).

    Still, I appreciate you sharing that, as it was interesting to check out.

    Whether Clowney commits himself to becoming a top player in the league and really works to hone is craft remains to be seen. I mentioned earlier that I could see Clowney emerging as a Pro Bowl caliber defensive end at the NFL Level because he has the talent to do so, but in terms of reaching the vast potential he has due to his athletic ability, I don't think he gets there if he doesn't show more consistent effort than he did this season.

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