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  1. #31
    harrydog's Avatar
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Hm, that's interesting, harry. What leads you to think that?
    I think you're setting me up for an argument, no? This was all discussed ad nauseam a few weeks ago and I don't really want to get into it again. I know that C. Long is an excellent athlete in his own right and posted outstanding numbers at the combine, but Gholston seems to have that rare, almost freakish athletic ability. How that translates to production on the football field is another story. If he has the desire and work ethic and is able to improve his technique and polish his skills, I think Gholston will be a perennial all pro. I'll be the first to admit though, that there may be too many "ifs" involved to be comfortable with the pick.


  2. #32
    ENN107 Guest

    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    its nice to see a person who gets it

  3. #33
    PossumBoy9 Guest

    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    I'm with you, EDM.

    It's clear to me that Gholston should be the pick.

  4. #34
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Gholston is the wild card in this bunch. I have Ohio State fans all over me (girlfriend is from Ohio and brother is a major Buckeyes fan) that are lukewarm on him. Said if the Rams are playing Arizona, don't expect much. If they are playing the Patriots, he'll be a monster.

    Don't know what to say about that, I didn't watch half as many Big 10 games as I did the SEC.
    His inconsistent production is a legitimate concern, true enough, but saying he only shows up in big games is almost a hidden compliment. Better than vice versa, eh? Maybe we could call him Vernon "Big Game" Gholston.

    IMO all he needs is a little more coaching & experience before his consistency on the stat chart comes through. I saw him beat Jake Long three separate times - two for a QB hit and one for a sack. That says something to me.

    Even though it might be unfair and biased as a Rams fan to say, I can't help that creeping little thought in the back of my mind... didn't we take Chris Long in the 1st round last year and Glenn Dorsey (switching injury concerns out for character concerns) in the 3rd round of the '06 draft?



    Shoving that irrational thought aside I'd like to reinforce the point that I won't complain if the Rams go with Long, Long, or Dorsey. All signs point to them being solid players. You would think the Rams can't screw this one up ... :x

    Go Gholst Rider in '08!




    :l

    -jake-
    Last edited by evil disco man; -04-01-2008 at 05:03 AM.

  5. #35
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Quote Originally Posted by harrydog View Post
    I think you're setting me up for an argument, no? This was all discussed ad nauseam a few weeks ago and I don't really want to get into it again. I know that C. Long is an excellent athlete in his own right and posted outstanding numbers at the combine, but Gholston seems to have that rare, almost freakish athletic ability. How that translates to production on the football field is another story. If he has the desire and work ethic and is able to improve his technique and polish his skills, I think Gholston will be a perennial all pro. I'll be the first to admit though, that there may be too many "ifs" involved to be comfortable with the pick.
    Not an argument, but a gentlemen's discussion. Kudos, though, for spotting it.

    My question is an attempt to get to the root of this false assumption that Gholston is a better athlete than Long. Long has the better 10-yard split, 20-yard shuttle, and 3-cone. And tied VG in the broad jump.

    So, I'm just trying to figure out why Gholston is deemed to be the "freakish" athlete, while Long has been relegated to the "slow, white guy" role. Is that it? Is this a race thing? Is the black guy just assumed to be the better athlete? I'm trying to wrap my arms around this concept when the numbers show that Long is just as athletic as Gholston.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #36
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Not an argument, but a gentlemen's discussion. Kudos, though, for spotting it.

    My question is an attempt to get to the root of this false assumption that Gholston is a better athlete than Long. Long has the better 10-yard split, 20-yard shuttle, and 3-cone. And tied VG in the broad jump.

    So, I'm just trying to figure out why Gholston is deemed to be the "freakish" athlete, while Long has been relegated to the "slow, white guy" role. Is that it? Is this a race thing? Is the black guy just assumed to be the better athlete? I'm trying to wrap my arms around this concept when the numbers show that Long is just as athletic as Gholston.


    While no one can say for certain (unless they just lined up and went head to head), I'd have to surmise that the perception has to do with the fact that Gholston is more dynamic.

    His abilities also seem to transcend the sport he plays. I get the feeling that it's not farfetched that after he goes out and dominates a football game, he could probably go hit a baseball 500 feet or probably get a double/double in a pick-up basketball game.

    Maybe even knock Mike Tyson (in his prime) out, then go hit a golfball twice as far as Tiger Woods. Then after he dusts off most men his size in the 40, I get the feeling that he probably could win a medal for shotputting at the olympics.

    I get the feeling that he could body-slam guys much bigger than himself and then after that go serve a tennis ball that Roger Federrer would have trouble returning.

    I'd feel sorry for guys he checked on the ice, he'd probably be quite the enforcer (assuming he could remain upright).

    I get the feeling that if he and Chris Long wrestled, he'd pin Chris in less than a minute.

    Of course, none of this is necessarily true, but it's the feeling I get.
    Last edited by Fortuninerhater; -04-02-2008 at 11:14 PM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Fortuninerhater, good one! LOL

    No doubt VG is a uniquely gifted athlete (maybe we'll get the Athlete of the Year!)...

    He reminds me of Bo 'Knows' Jackson, another phenom of an athlete, VG being the DE version.

  8. #38
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    First off, kudos for the rest of the post; that was pretty funny stuff. The visual of VG on ice skates is priceless by itself.
    While no one can say for certain (unless they just lined up and went head to head), .
    For the quote, I think the numbers we have would tell us we can know for certain. Long ran his 10 in 1.53; Gholston in 1.59. However, Long ran his 40 in 4.75; Gholston 4.58. I think it's fair to call "Long in 10, Gholston in 40" as a fact.
    I'd have to surmise that the perception has to do with the fact that Gholston is more dynamic.
    Fortu, my friend, in one sentence, you have hit upon what bothers me about the Long-Gholston debate in general. You start by acknowledging "the perception"; and don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with perceptions. We all got 'em, and ultimately that's what makes a message board go 'round. However, you state that perception is based on "the fact" that Gholston is more dynamic. Is that really a fact? Or another perception?

    I've got nothing "against" Gholston. The perception that he takes plays off, even games off is bothersome to me. However, I acknowledge it's not a fact, just that.....a perception. Therefore, I'm not against picking him at the #2 if Long is gone. I could even choke down taking him with Long still on the board, though I wouldn't be in favor of it.

    Having said that though, I think the perception of Gholston's superior athleticism over Long is vastly overblown. The numbers....not perception, or opinion, or gut feeling, but empirical data....show very little difference between Long and Gholston in the realm of athleticism.

    It's just frustrating to me to see this fallacy perpetuated.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  9. #39
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Here's how I look at it (as compared to Dorsey). I've heard Gholston has a tendency to take games, not necessarily plays off. All I've heard about Dorsey is that he brings it every play.

    That in itself should be reason to take Dorsey over Gholston when it comes to this much money.

  10. #40
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Does anyone know if C. Long has done the bench press for any scouts yet?

  11. #41
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    First off, kudos for the rest of the post; that was pretty funny stuff. The visual of VG on ice skates is priceless by itself.

    For the quote, I think the numbers we have would tell us we can know for certain. Long ran his 10 in 1.53; Gholston in 1.59. However, Long ran his 40 in 4.75; Gholston 4.58. I think it's fair to call "Long in 10, Gholston in 40" as a fact. Fortu, my friend, in one sentence, you have hit upon what bothers me about the Long-Gholston debate in general. You start by acknowledging "the perception"; and don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with perceptions. We all got 'em, and ultimately that's what makes a message board go 'round. However, you state that perception is based on "the fact" that Gholston is more dynamic. Is that really a fact? Or another perception?

    I've got nothing "against" Gholston. The perception that he takes plays off, even games off is bothersome to me. However, I acknowledge it's not a fact, just that.....a perception. Therefore, I'm not against picking him at the #2 if Long is gone. I could even choke down taking him with Long still on the board, though I wouldn't be in favor of it.

    Having said that though, I think the perception of Gholston's superior athleticism over Long is vastly overblown. The numbers....not perception, or opinion, or gut feeling, but empirical data....show very little difference between Long and Gholston in the realm of athleticism.

    It's just frustrating to me to see this fallacy perpetuated.

    The statement that Gholston is more dynamic than Long, I acknowledge is my opinion. But I believe that if the question was asked of every scout and/or coach in the NFL, the results would be overwhelmingly in Gholston's favor. Again, just my opinion, but even you have acknowledged that in another post.

    As far as the numbers go, I've read on Rivals.com that Long has only run a 4.85 forty. Not the 4.75 you presented. Which is accurate, who knows?

    They also state that his max bench press was 305lbs, compared to 375lbs for Gholston. According to that same site, Gholston also squatted 500lbs to Longs 480lbs.

    If you ask me, I'd say there's a huge desparity for Gholston in the 40 and the strength departments, as compared to a slight edge to Long in the drills you presented.

  12. #42
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    The statement that Gholston is more dynamic than Long, I acknowledge is my opinion. But I believe that if the question was asked of every scout and/or coach in the NFL, the results would be overwhelmingly in Gholston's favor. Again, just my opinion, but even you have acknowledged that in another post.

    As far as the numbers go, I've read on Rivals.com that Long has only run a 4.85 forty. Not the 4.75 you presented. Which is accurate, who knows?

    They also state that his max bench press was 305lbs, compared to 375lbs for Gholston. According to that same site, Gholston also squatted 500lbs to Longs 480lbs.

    If you ask me, I'd say there's a huge desparity for Gholston in the 40 and the strength departments, as compared to a slight edge to Long in the drills you presented.
    Then I'm afraid the accuracy of rivals.com must be called into question. The NFL Combine results for the 40 were 4.75 for Long and 4.67 for Gholston. If Rivals.com is reporting 4.85 for Long, they are incorrect. That, of course, makes me question that site's other numbers as well. Long.....a max bench of 305? I'm an old out of shape player, but I can still do more than that. I'm sure a young buck like Long can bench more than 305. But, other than Gholston's bench work at the Combine (tied for first.....quite impressive), I haven't heard of either of these two lifting for scouts.

    Now, to the point of which is more dynamic? I'd agree that, in my opinion, Gholston is probably the more explosive player. But like you said that is just our qualitative assessment. Can he translate that to the next level? Well, just between me and you.......I think we're going to find out. I still don't see how the fins pass on Jake Long, but with each passing day I think they take Chris Long. Which leaves us with the choice of neglecting the pass rush (J. Long), focusing on the interior rush (Dorsey), or going with the top natural pass rusher in the draft (Gholston).

    We may see first hand the development of young Mr. Gholston.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  13. #43
    RealRam's Avatar
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    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    fftopic: Moose, nice (current) avatar! Gholston a Ram... :l

  14. #44
    RANDYRAM Guest

    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Not at number 2, trade back and I could live with it...
    Not going to happen...
    You will live!! And if they don't ???
    You'll be pissed! LOL

    I LOVE THIS PIC!!!

  15. #45
    RANDYRAM Guest

    Re: Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    Rambos, that's exactly what I've been thinking as well. The comments about Gholston having more upside than Long are true, in that Gholston has only played defense for five years, his senior year in high school and then for four years at Ohio State. For his first two years at OSU, he sucked. A lot. He played in 8 total games and came away with one tackle, not for loss. His last two years, in 26 games, he amassed 86 tackles, 30.5 TFL and 22.5 sacks. Good loss and sack stats, but for a lineman/backer hybrid who isn't just rushing the passer but also is back in coverage, I would think that a true football player would be making more tackles and plays past the line of scrimmage. Even more so when said hybrid position moves him around to avoid double teams. Also note that his tackles by year were 49 and then 37. He actually made LESS tackles this past year than the one before.

    For comparison sake, Chris Long, in his only season(13 games) playing in a 4-3 amassed 79 tackles, 19 TFL, and 14.5 sacks. If you expand that to two seasons, you get 158 tackles, 38 TFL, and 29 sacks, all eclipsing Gholston's two years. Also his tackles went from 57 to 79, which would make sense for a developing football player.

    So what are the big questions? Well, the ones that I have never seen answered are:
    1) Which Gholston shows up for a non-sellout game against the Bills?
    2) Is Gholston a true football player or is he an athlete that plays football and when the pressure is on him and he's double teamed will just hit the wall and give up? He's only liked football since he was dragged into it by his high school coach. Yes, he likes the Rams, but that's not a reason to take him. When he was the focal point of opposing offenses, his tackles went down. Chris Long's went continually upwards.
    3) Has Gholston developed the skills needed for the NFL or has he ridden on his superior athletic abilities up until now?

    We know Chris Long works constantly on his technique and is always analyzing film on himself and his opponents to get better. He actively search out slights against him by the opposing team's fans to get himself riled up. What does Gholston do to start himself up?
    Hey Teke your leaving a few details out !
    Like Gholston was only a junior and came out !
    And C Long has a pro bowl dad to learn from!
    Give Gholston the the time to learn the little things and he has more speed
    and up side than Long.

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