Jim Tressel, EDM: Take Vernon Gholston!

[Tony Soprano]

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I'm surprised he has benched 455 lbs.

The more I read about this guy the more impressed I am.

I am looking (or hoping) for Charles Haley, Richard Dent, Chris Doleman type and the strength was one of the things I was wondering about. The Speed is known by everyone that has seen him play.

In the initial post, it was stated that Chris Long, Jake Long, Dorsey, and Ghoulston are all can't miss picks. I think statistics and past drafts show that this isn't the case at all.

Every year, people tend to act like these things are given and fixed - in reality a lot of the first round picks never, ever reach their predicted performance level.

This guy is REALLY intriguing.

[harrydog]

Hey Teke your leaving a few details out !
Like Gholston was only a junior and came out !
And C Long has a pro bowl dad to learn from!
Give Gholston the the time to learn the little things and he has more speed
and up side than Long.

True.
How much better do you think Gholston would be if he had the work ethic of Chris Long, was a student of the game like Chris Long, and had the help with technique that Long has gotten over the years? Lot's better is my guess. Right now he's getting by mainly with his athleticism and as such, has far more upside potential. But then of course that's where the greater risk comes in. Will he be willing to work hard enough at t he next level to develop his skills? No one knows.

[txramsfan]

True.
How much better do you think Gholston would be if he had the work ethic of Chris Long, was a student of the game like Chris Long, and had the help with technique that Long has gotten over the years? Lot's better is my guess. Right now he's getting by mainly with his athleticism and as such, has far more upside potential. But then of course that's where the greater risk comes in. Will he be willing to work hard enough at t he next level to develop his skills? No one knows.

Well, if that's the case....WHY NOT JUST TAKE CHRIS LONG/

[Nick]

Long has the better 10-yard split, 20-yard shuttle, and 3-cone. And tied VG in the broad jump.

For the quote, I think the numbers we have would tell us we can know for certain. Long ran his 10 in 1.53; Gholston in 1.59. However, Long ran his 40 in 4.75; Gholston 4.58. I think it's fair to call "Long in 10, Gholston in 40" as a fact.

Actually, according to the numbers I'm looking at, both were timed at 1.53 over ten yards. Also, Gholston was an inch better in the broad than Chris Long. Long was on top in the shuttle and 3-cone, but that's about it.

I agree with you that Long is an underrated athlete - the fact that Miami is looking at him as a possible 3-4 OLB shows that - but I think some of your numbers are a bit off.

Here's how I look at it (as compared to Dorsey). I've heard Gholston has a tendency to take games, not necessarily plays off.

It's a disputed characterization. Two well respected draft sites I frequent have praised Gholston for his high motor and top intangibles.

Well, if that's the case....WHY NOT JUST TAKE CHRIS LONG/

Well, yeah. I think given the choice between Long and Gholston, most would prefer Long.

[Rambos]

I don't care about his measurables

I'm surprised he has benched 455 lbs.

The more I read about this guy the more impressed I am.

Tony do measurables mean more when it's about a player you favor? You said you don't care about them and then I see you using them when it comes to down grading Jake Long. Help me here so I can see your point of view, when it comes to these players.

[HUbison]

Actually, according to the numbers I'm looking at, both were timed at 1.53 over ten yards. Also, Gholston was an inch better in the broad than Chris Long. Long was on top in the shuttle and 3-cone, but that's about it.

I took VG's 10-split from his Pro Day which was 1.59. However, after going back and looking again.....you're right, his Combine 10-split was actually better than his pro day; 1.53, tying him with Long. And yes, there was an inch difference in the Broad which I acknowledged in a post subsequent to this one.

But my point remains......Long betters VG in the 20-Shuttle & 3-Cone, misses his broad by a single inch, and ties in the 10-split. Where is the significant difference in athleticism?

I think given the choice between Long and Gholston, most would prefer Long.

I believe we have a few posters that would beg to differ.

[evil disco man]

.
In the initial post, it was stated that Chris Long, Jake Long, Dorsey, and Ghoulston are all can't miss picks. I think statistics and past drafts show that this isn't the case at all.

Every year, people tend to act like these things are given and fixed - in reality a lot of the first round picks never, ever reach their predicted performance level.

This guy is REALLY intriguing.

I agree. What I meant was that I wouldn't complain if they took any of those four.

People tend to use the "crapshoot" theory as a reason not to take risks on early picks, or not to "reach" for a guy you want, but I disagree. Take a risk for the guy you want, the guy you feel will fit on your team, and it will pay off just as often as going the conservative route... as long as you have a good eye for talent, of course.

:l

-jake-

[Nick]

But my point remains......Long betters VG in the 20-Shuttle & 3-Cone, misses his broad by a single inch, and ties in the 10-split. Where is the significant difference in athleticism?

I tend to fall on your side of this debate. Long is an underrated athlete IMO, and proved as much in tests at the combine and his pro day. There were some, myself included, that didn't consider him much of a 3-4 OLB prospect earlier this year. His workouts showed he has the athleticism to do it, IMO.

I believe we have a few posters that would beg to differ.

Well, yes. I accounted for those few by saying "most" rather than "all."

[rams_fan81]

Chris seems like a smart kid maybe he knew there was no way he was going to get close to Gholston in the bench unless there are some injuries that I don't know about?

[harrydog]

Well, if that's the case....WHY NOT JUST TAKE CHRIS LONG/

You missed my point apparently. I'm saying that with some work, Gholston could be better than Long. He has more potential.
Anyway, if he's there I think we will take Chris Long. My feeling is, at #2 Chris Long is a safer pick and the one I would prefer.
But given the choice between Chris Long at #2 or trading down a couple spots and being able to grab Gholston, I'd prefer the latter.

[Tony Soprano]

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Rambos,

I was surprised by his numbers, but they are only numbers. Yes.


So we don't put too much stock in workout numbers, here's DE Anthony Hargrove's numbers (3rd round of 2004 Draft):

6'3" 274lbs

AGILITY TESTS
4.63 in the 40-yard dash … 380-pound bench press … 39½-inch vertical jump … 10-foot-6 broad jump … 7.17 three-cone drill ...31 reps at 225 lbs.

Rams Head Coach Mike Martz on 3rd Round Draft Pick Tony Hargrove:
“We are excited about Tony. Bill (Kollar) just went down and worked him out, again. The measurables were off the charts for a man his size. He had a terrific year, obviously he had academic issues last year and sat out, but the year before that, he’s what we look for in a defensive lineman. He has a terrific motor, I think he had a 39-inch vertical jump, 31 reps on the bench, he’s a big guy with speed that plays with a great deal of passion. He’s very athletic, he came to Georgia Tech as a quarterback.

Hargrove had 1 sack in 2007

[HUbison]

Well, yes. I accounted for those few by saying "most" rather than "all."

But you know how it works, Nick..............the "few" will read the "most" as "all". Know what I mean?

[txramsfan]

You missed my point apparently. I'm saying that with some work, Gholston could be better than Long. He has more potential.
Anyway, if he's there I think we will take Chris Long. My feeling is, at #2 Chris Long is a safer pick and the one I would prefer.
But given the choice between Chris Long at #2 or trading down a couple spots and being able to grab Gholston, I'd prefer the latter.

Oh Harry, you wouldn't be the first point I apparently missed on this thing.

[TekeRam]

Hey Teke your leaving a few details out !
Like Gholston was only a junior and came out !
And C Long has a pro bowl dad to learn from!
Give Gholston the the time to learn the little things and he has more speed
and up side than Long.

Ok, fine, I will admit that Gholston was the only Junior who ever played in four separate years. See that, he IS a god! He can turn back time, or forward, I'm not sure. He is a REDSHIRT Junior. He played in 2004, 5, 6 and 2007.

In 2004, he played in 6 games with a grand total of zero tackles. Man, he put on a clinic that year!

In 2005, he medically redshirted after breaking his hand after two games and had a whole tackle to himself!

In 2006, his true Junior year, apparently he was finally able to break onto the starting squad: 13 games, 49 tackles, 15 TFL, and 8.5 sacks.

In 2007, again 13 games, only 37 tackles, 15.5 TFL, and 14 sacks.

To quickly skip ahead to your final point, a pick at #2 doesn't have time to learn the intricacies of his position. He needs to be ready to start immediately and be a difference maker. Other than injuries, Calvin Johnson did that last year. I question Gholston's lack of knowledge of the game because he is just as much a bust risk as he is a pro bowl possibility. There's something to be said about athletic ability yes, but Gholston doesn't have the awareness that he needs, and the numbers back me up on this.

As for Chris Long, yes, he has a Hall of Fame father, not just pro bowl. He uses him extensively to learn and polish his game. Exactly what you want in a #2 pick. He is an obsessive worker and will better the guys around him. Do you think that Gholston doesn't have experienced line coaches and even current NFL stars from OSU that would help him? I'm sure someone would be more than happy to teach him how to play DE if he asked.

I don't think you want me to list his stats, as his, even while playing in a 3-4 scheme where his job wasn't always to get to the ball, are better than Gholston's who always played a position designed to move him away from blockers, not into double teams like Long, and into coverage as well, where he could supposedly read the offense and make plays downfield too. Supposedly being the operative word. In other words, he didn't.

[rams_fan81]

I don't think you want me to list his stats, as his, even while playing in a 3-4 scheme where his job wasn't always to get to the ball, are better than Gholston's who always played a position designed to move him away from blockers, not into double teams like Long, and into coverage as well, where he could supposedly read the offense and make plays downfield too. Supposedly being the operative word. In other words, he didn't.

Yeah I'm sure you know that he didn't make any plays down field field cause you probably watched all of his games or hours of film on him, right?