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  1. #1
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    McCoy continues to annoy

    The one comment (which I've read from a handful of fans and a couple of analysts) that I just don't get is the suggestion that Gerald McCoy should be taken before Ndamukong Suh.

    Based on what?

    Go and look up their stats (I've posted them before and I don't have the time of patience to pull them again). Its not even close. Suh's production is essentially double that of McCoy.

    And what's the context of these stats? Two guys who play in the same conference against the same competition level. Two guys who are close to the same size.

    I've heard some try to argue that McCoy has better technique. I don't see it. From what I've seen, Suh has great technique for a college player. But, even if McCoy had better technique, SUH DOUBLED HIS PRODUCTION! Imagine how Suh could produce if his technique develops further.

    If the Rams ultimately decide that they need to take a QB with the first pick, I'll be disappointed, but at least I'd understand the thinking. After all, if that pick were to turn into a franchise QB, nobody would argue with it in the long run. Similarly, if the Rams trade down, I'll have misgivings, but I'd understand the logic.

    I'll tell you this, though. If the Rams stay a pick No. 1 and take McCoy over Suh, you will hear a loud sound coming from the Southeast United States.

    It will be me screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!"


  2. #2
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Go and look up their stats (I've posted them before and I don't have the time of patience to pull them again). Its not even close. Suh's production is essentially double that of McCoy.

    And what's the context of these stats? Two guys who play in the same conference against the same competition level. Two guys who are close to the same size.

    I've heard some try to argue that McCoy has better technique. I don't see it. From what I've seen, Suh has great technique for a college player. But, even if McCoy had better technique, SUH DOUBLED HIS PRODUCTION! Imagine how Suh could produce if his technique develops further.
    It's not always about stats. Some people feel that McCoy plays with much better leverage and technique (Suh can play a little high at times, and if you see his highlights he does look a bit uptight when he's lined up in comparison to McCoy) and he has elite burst and explosion off the snap. However, Suh was apart of a defense that told him to read the play and then react, meaning sometimes he would just stand up and occupy his blockers. So, maybe we didn't see the bull rush or explosion from Suh in that regard more often because of the system? And yet he still got all those sacks and production. So I definitely see where you're coming from.

    I saw in another thread you criticized a poster for saying that McCoy is more refined as a pass rusher and cited Suh's twelve sacks as the reason why this was false. Well, Trevor Scott (who was taken in the 6th round in '08) had seven sacks last year and Chris Long had five. Does that mean Scott is a better pass rusher than Long? No, of course not. You can't let stats dictate the reasoning for your arguments or use it as a basis for why you are correct and everyone else is wrong. (And please don't get on me because I prefer Suh to McCoy, I'm just trying to make a point here).

    Calvin Johnson was drafted #2 overall in 2007 but he didn't have elite production until his junior (last) season. Normally you would raise questions like is he a one year wonder or something to that effect, but the reality is he was held down by horrible quarterback play and he was apart of a system that relied heavily on the option and run. Some people feel like McCoy will be a better pro because he has more untapped potential than Suh having been only a junior and they believe he would come close to Suh's production if he had stayed for his senior season. I'm a Suh fan, but it's really interchangeable between the two so you could essentially label Suh and McCoy as 1A) and 1B).
    Last edited by Bald_81; -01-26-2010 at 11:11 AM.

  3. #3
    Bralidore(RAMMODE)'s Avatar
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Yeah.....give me Suh please. The guy is ferocious, powerful, intelligent, gets hands up, and just plain dominant. Suh wasn't exactly put in a situation where he was supposed to dominant like he did. He MADE plays and took on triple teams at times. I bet his stance was a product of not wanting to be caught out of position. That's the danger of a big explosion, you can get caught out of position or rode to the ground. Suh rushes the passer, or reads the Qb and gets his hands up while occupying blockers, shreds blockers and attacks the ball carrier when its coming, and chases plays down behind...

    I have no doubt Mccoy will become a good player, but Suh is just plain better in terms of production and ability.

    And if im correct, i believe Suh had an elite junior campaign as well recording over 80 tackles again.. its not like he came out of nowhere, he just learned and got better.

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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Frickin' hell. There is no argument agaisnt Suh. It's a bunch of bull. Ppl are just scared of the hype.

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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    I want the combine to be here already !

  6. #6
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    When you're paying a number one pick overall the big bucks, you would hope the guy can stay on the field for as many snaps as possible. There have been questions about McCoys weight and stamina - whereas there are none that I know of with Suh. I'd bet McCoy will get gassed alot sooner than Suh, meaning Suh should be on the field for more snaps over the course of an NFL season. Also one of the "NFL pundits" said that McCoy is the better pass rusher, but offered no stats or reasoning for his comment .. Could that be because Suhs stats contradict his opinion?

    Suh can and likely will develop into a one man wrecking crew with NFL coaching. We can debate QB vs Suh all the way to April, but for this fan, it's a no brainer. None of the available QBs available at this point project IMO as a "can hardly miss" franchise QB. The old saying: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" applies here. The Rams cannot afford to gamble when there is a player like Suh available .. There is every indication Suh will develop into a player that can literally take over games and disrupt opposing offensive schemes. Sure - there are no absolute guarantees with any player - but this guy is the closest thing to a sure thing the Rams will have had a shot at in a long, long, time ...

  7. #7
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    It's not always about stats. .
    This is the only part of this post I read. All I can say is for the most part it is all about stats. Especially when Suh's stats are TWICE as good as Mccoys. Theres no argument here. Are you kidding me? Technique? I havent seen any better technique from Mccoy either but, if his is better than Suh's im sure NFL coaches can improve that. Suh's a beast with alot of potential that I believe will be shown when he's wearing the Rams jersey.

    Suh all the way.
    Last edited by FestusRam; -01-26-2010 at 01:49 PM.

  8. #8
    LA Rammer's Avatar
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Suh or bust!
    LA RAMMER

    It's Jim not Chris
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HNgqQVHI_8

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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    [QUOTE=Bald_81;328845]It's not always about stats. Some people feel that McCoy plays with much better leverage and technique (Suh can play a little high at times, and if you see his highlights he does look a bit uptight when he's lined up in comparison to McCoy) and he has elite burst and explosion off the snap. However, Suh was apart of a defense that told him to read the play and then react, meaning sometimes he would just stand up and occupy his blockers. So, maybe we didn't see the bull rush or explosion from Suh in that regard more often because of the system? And yet he still got all those sacks and production. So I definitely see where you're coming from.

    I saw in another thread you criticized a poster for saying that McCoy is more refined as a pass rusher and cited Suh's twelve sacks as the reason why this was false. Well, Trevor Scott (who was taken in the 6th round in '08) had seven sacks last year and Chris Long had five. Does that mean Scott is a better pass rusher than Long? No, of course not. You can't let stats dictate the reasoning for your arguments or use it as a basis for why you are correct and everyone else is wrong. (And please don't get on me because I prefer Suh to McCoy, I'm just trying to make a point here).

    .....................QUOTE]

    I can't let this go. AV pointed out, rightfully, that Suh stats were what, double?, McCoy, and that they played in the same conference?! And you pull out the argument of Scott and Long with Scott having 2 more sacks than Long. Your right, Long is the better DE. But with Suh and McCoy we are looking at a stat sheet that is "twice" as productive in the same conference from roughly the same type position. In this context, there is no question that the stats a very pertinent.

    Your jab at AV about "criticizing" another post is out of line and your argument is weak. If AVs critical of another post, there is ussually some merit involved in the criticism. Publicly grinding a guy in one thread about a issue from another is also inappropriate. Message him, in my experience he will respond.
    Semper Fi!

  10. #10
    Bralidore(RAMMODE)'s Avatar
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    This argument is stimulated from people getting scared of the hype and wanting to tear down the man-beast that is Suh. MCcoy>Suh in any way, shape, or fashion makes no sense on any level.

    "Mccoy gets better explosion.." Who the hell cares if he gets half the sacks of Suh who SUPPOSEDLY doesn't have as good explosion..

  11. #11
    TheRammer Guest

    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    What all of you have to realise is that people in the media and sports analyst that cover all of this Draft and college subjects right now get paid to talk about things and they have already talked about SUh, now they are just stirring the pot and saying things about McCoy, wouldn't be surprised if soon they be saying Bradford or something... but when the real Analyst come the end of March then April Mayock and the others will without a doubt be boasting SUH up since they are more true draft analysts and have a rep to uphold not just to talk at bs to stir the pot.

  12. #12
    RamsFan16's Avatar
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Actually, all the Suh hype is getting quite annoying. Prior to that Texas game, Suh and McCoy are neck and neck.

    The argument is that Suh relies on his power more than he has any type of finesse move, which doesn't translate to the NFL as well as McCoy, who is a damn good player and has a handful of moves more than Suh that translate over.
    RamsFan16

  13. #13
    Bralidore(RAMMODE)'s Avatar
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    Actually, all the Suh hype is getting quite annoying. Prior to that Texas game, Suh and McCoy are neck and neck.

    The argument is that Suh relies on his power more than he has any type of finesse move, which doesn't translate to the NFL as well as McCoy, who is a damn good player and has a handful of moves more than Suh that translate over.
    Neck and neck? I thought those 12 sacks that doubled Mccoy weren't even counting the 4.5 he got against Texas alone...

    And if you don't need to twirl, dance, and spin around why the heck would you? And for every spinning twirl dance Mccoy has Suh makes up for with more power and awareness as he consistently gets his hands up and disrupts plays every...single....down.

    I can only name a handful of plays all year long where Suh isn't a factor..

    Eh name Mccoy "better" if you prefer, i know come april if the Rams stay with the top pick it better be Suhs name because I live a bike ride away from the Dome, and i have a loaded BB gun that penetrates walls....

  14. #14
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    The objective data is clear and uncontested. Suh's tackles totals are literally off the chart for a DT. His sacks totals are outstanding.

    McCoy has good stats, but they are not even in the same ballpark as Suh's.

    So the only arguments in favor of McCoy are subjective analyses that, quite frankly, I (and many many analysts) disagree with.

    I stand by my statement... I will have a fit if the Rams take McCoy over Suh.

  15. #15
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    I feel like I don't have much to add to this thread as the sides and opinions have been hashed out pretty clearly...I do have one question though for those in favor of picking McCoy over Suh. If its so clear that Suh is doing things that won't fly in the NFL (ala Tim Tebow) why is it that scouts and draft analysts are calling him the best DT to come out in 20-30 years? Mel Kiper called him the best DT prospect he's seen in 32 years.

    So why is that? If he's not even as good as McCoy, why would they say that?

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