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  1. #16
    TheRammer Guest

    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    Actually, all the Suh hype is getting quite annoying. Prior to that Texas game, Suh and McCoy are neck and neck.

    The argument is that Suh relies on his power more than he has any type of finesse move, which doesn't translate to the NFL as well as McCoy, who is a damn good player and has a handful of moves more than Suh that translate over.
    what you got to be kidding me? So your telling me no one has ever been succesful in the NFL that has a bull rush or that is strong? guess you dont even know your own Rams history Deacon Jones was like that, Reggie White used crazy strength to overcome his defenders...


  2. #17
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRammer View Post
    what you got to be kidding me? So your telling me no one has ever been succesful in the NFL that has a bull rush or that is strong? guess you dont even know your own Rams history Deacon Jones was like that, Reggie White used crazy strength to overcome his defenders...
    Did I say that Suh wouldn't be successful? Quite putting words in my damn mouth. I said his skill set wouldn't translate to the NFL as well as McCoys. Suh can obviously be coached, I'm noting that he isn't going to be able to bull rush his way into the NFL.

    Those guys were successful, but this league is much different than it was back then.
    RamsFan16

  3. #18
    TheRammer Guest

    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    Did I say that Suh wouldn't be successful? Quite putting words in my damn mouth. I said his skill set wouldn't translate to the NFL as well as McCoys. Suh can obviously be coached, I'm noting that he isn't going to be able to bull rush his way into the NFL.

    Those guys were successful, but this league is much different than it was back then.
    Gee ya think? college isn't the same as the NFL? who would of thunk it? I gurantee the first year Suh will be more productive his first year and the majority of progressive years than McCoy barring an injuries to either one.

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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRammer View Post
    Gee ya think? college isn't the same as the NFL? who would of thunk it? I gurantee the first year Suh will be more productive his first year and the majority of progressive years than McCoy barring an injuries to either one.
    You'll guarantee?
    RamsFan16

  5. #20
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    I actually expect McCoy to be better as a rookie than Suh. Suh's first year can be treated as an 'experiment' because he'll definitely be trying out and implimenting new moves and techniques that will help him in the long run, maybe at the expense of some production. As it's been noted, he doesn't exactly have multiple moves in his repetoire so he will probably have to work on that but if the sacks do come then that is just gravy. McCoy will be better earlier on, but Suh will be the better player when all is said and done.

    The only thing I'm going to dread are those "WE SHOULD'VE TAKEN MCCOY!!!!" threads next year if my prediction is correct. Happy happy, joy joy.

  6. #21
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    McCoy couldn't bust through Nebraska's patchwork and injured OL. He ended up with a grand total of three tackles and this was against an attack that was heavily rush-oriented that evening.

    Suh? Four tackles, a pass deflected and a field goal blocked. Oh and flat out barreling an Oklahoma OL back into his quarterback. Just another day at the office...

  7. #22
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bralidore(RAMMODE) View Post
    Neck and neck? I thought those 12 sacks that doubled Mccoy weren't even counting the 4.5 he got against Texas alone...
    If we remove the Texas game from Suh and the Bowl game from McCoy, (Suh didn't accumulate stats in the bowl game according to ESPN, and McCoy didn't play in a Big XII championship game), this leaves us with 12 regular season games for each player.

    I am not arguing in favor of Suh or McCoy, just showing how the sacks looked after 12 regular season games.

    McCoy: 5 Sacks
    Suh: 8 Sacks

    I may be a half-sack off on those guys, if I am let me know so I can fix it. Now I'll admit that I don't know much about the D-Lines of Oklahoma and Nebraska, so can anyone tell me what the talent difference is for the rest of those lines? Could it be that McCoy has better teammates, so they took away from some of his personal stats? Or does Suh also have great teammates, but he just dominated anyways?

  8. #23
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    Actually, all the Suh hype is getting quite annoying. Prior to that Texas game, Suh and McCoy are neck and neck.
    For some, maybe. But to generalize it like that as if that was the predominant opinion isn't accurate. Some feel and have felt that Suh and McCoy are closer than people think. I don't think the gap is huge. But to say that Suh wasn't viewed as highly as he is now prior to the Texas game is simply mistaken.

    For instance, here's a summary from ESPN's Draft Lab, written by KC Joyner. This was done prior to the Texas game:

    The Football Scientist Lab Result: Suh is hands down the best player I have graded in the Draft Lab series. It is said that this is one of the deepest defensive line drafts in NFL history and the metrics say Suh is head and shoulders above his positional competition. He should be the No. 1 pick in the draft and, if I had a vote, I would nominate him for the Heisman Trophy without hesitation. He easily gets a TFS seal of approval.
    Did Suh pick up steam because of his game against Texas? Absolutely. But Suh's been highly regarded for quite a while, and while I don't think the gap between he and McCoy is vast, I also don't think it was only brought about by the Texas game.

    Suh has separated himself as a special prospect and (more than anyone else) the consensus best prospect in this class because of what he's been able to do this season and in his career, not just because of one game. The fact that he's been so dominant without the same kind of pass rush arsenal that McCoy probably makes many wonder how much better he can be once he expands his technique and pass rush array.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    I actually expect McCoy to be better as a rookie than Suh. Suh's first year can be treated as an 'experiment' because he'll definitely be trying out and implimenting new moves and techniques that will help him in the long run, maybe at the expense of some production. As it's been noted, he doesn't exactly have multiple moves in his repetoire so he will probably have to work on that but if the sacks do come then that is just gravy. McCoy will be better earlier on, but Suh will be the better player when all is said and done.

    The only thing I'm going to dread are those "WE SHOULD'VE TAKEN MCCOY!!!!" threads next year if my prediction is correct. Happy happy, joy joy.
    Neither of these things - McCoy having a more productive start to his career or the second-guessers coming out in force should that happen - would surprise me, but I tend to agree with you. I think Suh's physical abilities and skills combined with what will likely be improved technique as he grows at the next level gives him the potential to be better in the long run.
    Last edited by Nick; -01-27-2010 at 12:24 PM.

  9. #24
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    As it's been noted, he doesn't exactly have multiple moves in his repetoire so he will probably have to work on that but if the sacks do come then that is just gravy.
    You keep saying this as if its an objective fact, but its not. Its your opinion.

    My opinion is that Suh has plenty of moves, and also uses his hands like a veteran NFL player. I remember hearing Howie Long discuss the importance of a DL's use of his hands in discussing draft prospects a few years back. Essentially, he said that the battle at the line of scrimmage is often won based upon the initial "punch" after the snap. He certainly should know.

  10. #25
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    You keep saying this as if its an objective fact, but its not. Its your opinion.

    My opinion is that Suh has plenty of moves, and also uses his hands like a veteran NFL player. I remember hearing Howie Long discuss the importance of a DL's use of his hands in discussing draft prospects a few years back. Essentially, he said that the battle at the line of scrimmage is often won based upon the initial "punch" after the snap. He certainly should know.
    How about we go straight to the source then, shall we?

    YouTube - Ndomukong Suh Visits Sportscenter

    Suh agrees that it's fair to say that he currently lacks a patented move because he lets the offensive linemen he lines up against dictate what he's going to do (1:38). I guess it's not really my opinion when I'm just repeating what Mr. Suh has already said?

    And there is no denying how impressive he is using his hands. It's the most advanced I've ever seen a player (which isn't saying much) with his ability to disengage from blockers and make plays. I'm just pointing out how he currently lacks multiple moves because he certainly can't be a one-trick pony in the NFL using only a swim move or just bull rush because guards will catch on to that immediately. But again, I said we may have not seen these moves since his role was to mainly occupy blockers, read the play then react. It took Albert Haynesworth three years to become a dominant DT so people expecting Suh to come in and set the world on fire should temper their expectations a little bit.

  11. #26
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    How about we go straight to the source then, shall we?

    Suh agrees that it's fair to say that he currently lacks a patented move because he lets the offensive linemen he lines up against dictate what he's going to do (1:38). I guess it's not really my opinion when I'm just repeating what Mr. Suh has already said?
    Yes, he said (being his typical humble self) that he does not have a "patented move." He then said he "uses different moves against different players."

    In other words, rather than relying on ONE signature move, he is able to adjust to the competition.

    Thanks for posting that. I think you've made my point nicely.

  12. #27
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    WOW, IM IN EVEN MORE LOVE WITH NDAMUKONG SUH!.... how could you not want to pick this guy? He is supposedly the best DT to enter the draft in 32 years quoted from an analyst, ill give u the name later. and his personality is great, his drive to win is great, and hes just fun to be around. you can tell he will push the guys around him! .... IM DIENG TO SEE HIM IN HORNS. (PLEASE LORD)

  13. #28
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Yes, he said (being his typical humble self) that he does not have a "patented move." He then said he "uses different moves against different players."

    In other words, rather than relying on ONE signature move, he is able to adjust to the competition.

    Thanks for posting that. I think you've made my point nicely.
    The analyst said that the knock is he doesn't have any moves because he relies on his strength and quickness. Suh then said he would agree, and when describing his own Nebraska center he used the word "strength" as a way to beat him and then the word "quickness" for other linemen. Basically, he is admitting he uses just straight bull rush or a swim move depending on the linemen. I guess that does qualify as multiple moves, but not nearly enough to work on the guards in the NFL. I don't see how that totally flew over your head, but that's fine.

    In the Arizona game, he actually did attempt a spin move on one play and was stonewalled by the offensive linemen. It was definitely encouraging to see him attempt it, but you could tell he had never used it before and it was easily neutralized. Look, I like Suh, but no prospect is a "can't miss". I guess I just don't understand why you'll be enraged if they take McCoy because if this is any other draft he is the bonafide best DT and quite possibly the #1 pick. So basically, the fact that you think "McCoy continues to annoy" because he might displace Suh as the #1 pick is annoying.
    Last edited by Bald_81; -01-27-2010 at 09:34 PM.

  14. #29
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    The analyst said that the knock is he doesn't have any moves because he relies on his strength and quickness. Suh then said he would agree, and when describing his own Nebraska center he used the word "strength" as a way to beat him and then the word "quickness" for other linemen. Basically, he is admitting he uses just straight bull rush or a swim move depending on the linemen. I guess that does qualify as multiple moves, but not nearly enough to work on the guards in the NFL. I don't see how that totally flew over your head, but that's fine.

    In the Arizona game, he actually did attempt a spin move on one play and was stonewalled by the offensive linemen. It was definitely encouraging to see him attempt it, but you could tell he had never used it before and it was easily neutralized. Look, I like Suh, but no prospect is a "can't miss". I guess I just don't understand why you'll be enraged if they take McCoy because if this is any other draft he is the bonafide best DT and quite possibly the #1 pick. So basically, the fact that you think "McCoy continues to annoy" because he might displace Suh as the #1 pick is annoying.
    I got the same idea as Avenger watching that clip. The analyst said "moves" and then his last sentence he said that he didn't have A move (as in one). And if you listen to what Suh said about the swim move he said he used it in High School but had to get away from it in college because you can't get the offensive linemen get they're hands on you (or something to that effect). So scratch the swim move. So what other "moves" is he referring to then? Do you honestly believe the most hyped DT in 30 years uses JUST the bull rush and has somehow tricked all the scouts by just being really strong?

  15. #30
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    The analyst said that the knock is he doesn't have any moves because he relies on his strength and quickness. Suh then said he would agree, and when describing his own Nebraska center he used the word "strength" as a way to beat him and then the word "quickness" for other linemen. Basically, he is admitting he uses just straight bull rush or a swim move depending on the linemen. ...............
    Nope, that isn't what Suh said. He's not limitted to the bull rush and the swim move. Not even close.

    First he was being humble for lack of a better word, at the beginning.

    Then he said he doesn't have a "patented" move which in context I read to mean "not a one signiture" move. He says he has different moves for different kinds of offensive linemen, which I read as meaning he has different moves and different approaches based on the current opposition.

    He in no way admitted to having the spin move as a move but spoke about it as something he did in high school but had to move away from at the college level. Again, adaptable.

    I've tried to transcibe that bit if it helps in clarifying this issue. <should be pretty close>


    Suh - "………..I would agree I don’t have a pantented move that I that I worked and I don’t think I have the <unintelligible> me just being able to a wanna have different moves against different players and different seeing different types of offensive linemen because you have big strong offensive linemen and you have real quick guys as we had arggh our center Jacob Haben <sp> at our school I liked against him I could use my power but other guys I gotta use my quickness so I’ve I’ve learn to do different moves and haven’t really honed into one specific one other than probably the swim move which I used in high school but I had to get away from because at the college level they a once you get into their once somebody gets into your body it’s tough so I kinda moved away from that…………"

    Suh is a big time performer, a true football player. He isn't limitting himself to a move. He adapts and overcomes. He may even improvise.

    I think you missed what he was saying Bald.
    Last edited by Richbert88; -01-27-2010 at 10:30 PM.
    Semper Fi!

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