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  1. #31
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Why does one have to choose from a catelogue of moves anyway? How about using hands to displace a lineman, get him off balanced, move him. You don't have to open a repertoire of moves on guys when simple leverage, strength, positioning, hand placement, and explosion will do just fine.


  2. #32
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaRamFan View Post
    Do you honestly believe the most hyped DT in 30 years uses JUST the bull rush and has somehow tricked all the scouts by just being really strong?
    He's going to be drafted based on his production and the potential he has at the next level. We took Jason Smith over Monroe and Oher last year based on POTENTIAL. Smith played in a two-point stance the majority of his college career, so the Rams were projecting him based on what he would could potentially be as an LT in the NFL. If they wanted to go the safe route, they would've taken Monroe but Smith possessed the higher ceiling even if they had to work out some kinks with his game. With Suh, you see a strong, determined player who has incredible football IQ. With that said, he needs some coaching on how to use better technique, leverage, and more moves. I'm sure the Rams are confident that Spags coaching and his staff will get that done, so that's why he's being considered for the 1st pick. He is one of the most hyped DTs because we are witnessing what he is capable of in college without a full repertoire of moves and proper NFL coaching, so compound it with that and you have the potential for a truly once in a lifetime DT.

    With that said, a lot of people also believe McCoy possesses the greater ceiling and that Suh would be a "safe" pick. Not every scout is going to agree and this is why we have these heated discussions every year prior to draft time. Look's like McCoy is continuing to annoy:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox Sports
    First Round

    1. St. Louis Rams -- Ndamukong Suh, DT, Nebraska: Hey, no one was exactly blown away by the start of the Keith Null Era in St. Louis. The sixth-round rookie gunslinger out of West Texas A&M (college quarterbacks coach? Ryan Leaf. I wish I was kidding.) did little to inspire the masses in his four starts at quarterback for the Rams at the end of St. Louis's abysmal 1-15 2009 campaign. But I just don't see GM Billy Devaney and coach Steve Spagnuolo letting "The Boy Named Suh" slide by them. For as bad as the Rams offense was in '09, the defense was probably worse. Suh has been compared favorably to just about every great DT in the past 20 years, most commonly Warren Sapp and Haloti Ngata. For as tempting as Jimmy Clausen or Sam Bradford might be for the quarterback-starved Rams, Suh's the pick. They'll get their quarterback later on. More on that in a bit.

    2. Detroit Lions -- Gerald McCoy, DT, Oklahoma: The Lions D improved from their epically awful 2008 season in '09, but the unit was still among the league's worst. Prepare for this over the next 2-3 months: draftniks and armchair analysts breaking down the pros and cons of Nebraska's Suh and Oklahoma's McCoy, side-by-side-by-side like slabs of meat. Suh's the safe bet, but McCoy may have the greater NFL upside. Detroit will pair him with rising second-year talent Sammie Lee Hill and re-work Jim Schwartz's ailing defense from the inside out.
    Like I said before, I believe McCoy will transition to the NFL quicker than Suh and have a better start in his early career, but in the long run I envision Suh as the better player. You can compare that to Jason Smith as well because he certainly took his lumps this year (Dwight Freeney abused him) but in the long run I believe he will be the best tackle of his class. It's based on potential, not who will make the quicker impact in the NFL.

    EDIT: And just so everyone can witness that Suh is in fact human, turn your attention to this highlight clip at the 7:40 mark:

    YouTube - DT Ndamukong Suh Highlights/Lowlights 2009 Nebraska Part 3

    Suh plays with poor leverage and technique on that play and is swam out of the way by the offensive lineman. He needs to work on those little things to prevent that from happening against the bigger guards in the NFL, and that will certainly take some time which is why I'm saying everyone should temper their expectations with him. But when you're hyped as the best college DT of the past 32 years, there certainly will be no time for that. Furthermore, if you continue to watch the clip in the play immediately following the first one, you'll see when he makes a tackle in the backfield (7:54), the majority of the time he was occupying his blocker, then disengaging and making the play. He didn't jump off the snap and immediately attempt a move. Instead, he stood up, got his hands in the offensive linemen's body, read the play, then disengaged and made the TFL. This is partially because it's what Nebraska's defense dictates for him to do, but it's exactly why people are questioning whether he's limited in terms of moves for the next level.
    Last edited by Bald_81; -01-27-2010 at 11:18 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    wow seriously? how are you gonna say one play at 7:40 makes him human? of course he's human, even peyton manning has bad plays or any hall of famer for that matter... He's not arrogant and I bet he knows he has alot of work to do still but he is just a outrageous athlete... the thing that strikes me in that video is he by himself makes the whole line better and with that said they make the rest of the LB core and Secondary better instantly... I'm so excited.!

  4. #34
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    I think Suh is definitely the best player in the draft, and the best DT prospect. But i think some people here are getting way to defensive when it comes to another player at the same position being graded out as an elite prospect as well. In any other draft McCoy would be considered THE elite DT prospect and a top 5 pick. He could have been a top 15 pick last year after only playing 2 seasons!

    McCoy has excellent hand placement and plays with better leverage than Suh. I heard someone earlier in the thread say that McCoy has weight issues? Wrong. He is the same height and 10 lbs lighter than Suh. People keep bringing up college stats when talking about the two, but college stats are a horrible barometer when talking about NFL prospects. Vernon Gholston had excellent stats in college, so did Graham Harrel, so did Darren Mcfadden..

    If you see the videos of Suh bowling over 2-3 lineman and making a tackle in the backfield and expect that to translate to the next level you are sadly mistaken. Almost every scouting report ive viewed on Suh has said he relies too much on his athletic abilities and strength. While these are tools that give him the potential to be an elite DT (and what makes him the #1 prospect), they will also cripple him as a pro if he doesnt learn proper hand placement and play with a lower pad level. I will not be surprised AT ALL if (assuming we take suh, and mccoy goes to Detroit),barring injury, McCoy puts up better stats his rookie year. He has great technique and discipline at the point of attack and all of his skills translate. Suh will have to spend a lot of time learning to keep defenders away from his body and how to control his gaps.

    Does this mean he will not be a good pro? of course not. He has potential to be the best DT in the NFl which is why he will go #1. He has "more" pro potential than Mccoy (difficult to say as it is unquantifiable), but that is no slight to McCoy. I think most of McCoy's hype has been coming recently as NFL Network's Mike Mayock (a very good talent evaluatior IMO) recently graded him as the #1 DT prospect over Suh..
    Last edited by Greg M; -01-28-2010 at 01:41 PM.

  5. #35
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg M View Post
    I think Suh is definitely the best player in the draft, and the best DT prospect. But i think some people here are getting way to defensive when it comes to another player at the same position being graded out as an elite prospect as well. In any other draft McCoy would be considered THE elite DT prospect and a top 5 pick. He could have been a top 15 pick last year after only playing 2 seasons!

    McCoy has excellent hand placement and plays with better leverage than Suh. I heard someone earlier in the thread say that McCoy has weight issues? Wrong. He is the same height and 10 lbs lighter than Suh. People keep bringing up college stats when talking about the two, but college stats are a horrible barometer when talking about NFL prospects. Vernon Gholston had excellent stats in college, so did Graham Harrel, so did Darren Mcfadden..

    If you see the videos of Suh bowling over 2-3 lineman and making a tackle in the backfield and expect that to translate to the next level you are sadly mistaken. Almost every scouting report ive viewed on Suh has said he relies too much on his athletic abilities and strength. While these are tools that give him the potential to be an elite DT (and what makes him the #1 prospect), they will also cripple him as a pro if he doesnt learn proper hand placement and play with a lower pad level. I will not be surprised AT ALL if (assuming we take suh, and mccoy goes to Detroit),barring injury, McCoy puts up better stats his rookie year. He has great technique and discipline at the point of attack and all of his skills translate. Suh will have to spend a lot of time learning to keep defenders away from his body and how to control his gaps.

    Does this mean he will not be a good pro? of course not. He has potential to be the best DT in the NFl which is why he will go #1. He has "more" pro potential than Mccoy (difficult to say as it is unquantifiable), but that is no slight to McCoy. I think most of McCoy's hype has been coming recently as NFL Network's Mike Mayock (a very good talent evaluatior IMO) recently graded him as the #1 DT prospect over Suh..
    Wow, are you my twin or something? Echoing the exact same sentiments I've been saying. Your last paragraph sums the situation up perfectly.

  6. #36
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    TX knows as much or more about defense as anyone on this board. Early in the year, he was a proponent of McCoy and when i asked him on the board why he preferred mcoy over suh his fair answer was that he is more familiar with mccoy. TO the best of my knowledge, TX is now firmly in the SUH camp and that is good enough for me.

    As an additional point, there is no comparison in the production, its not even close and as av said, the competition is virtually the same (same conference, schedule etc)

    ramming speed to all

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  7. #37
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel View Post
    As an additional point, there is no comparison in the production, its not even close and as av said, the competition is virtually the same (same conference, schedule etc)
    Wide Receiver A: 58 REC, 920 YDs, 8 TDs

    Wide Receiver B: 40 REC, 644 YDs, 7 TDs

    On the surface you would say that Wide Receiver A is better, when in fact Wide Receiver B was taken ahead of him in last year's draft (22nd overall compared to 50th overall).

    It's the same scenario as with Suh and McCoy because both are from the same conference, both teams played against each other, etc. Basically, stats is not the way you judge a player. Sure, it helps provide some substance, but really there are multiple aspects that goes into where a player is drafted. If stats were the basis for draft day decisions, Elvis Dumervil wouldn't have lasted until the fourth round in 2006 (he had 17 sacks his final year) and we wouldn't have gotten Tim McGarigle in the seventh round (he was a tackling machine in college). I understand that both Suh and McCoy have played against the same competition, but that alone does not draw the upper hand to Suh because it's other aspects of his game that make him the better prospect.

  8. #38
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Bald, my sentence started with "As an additional point" I agree with you, stats alone dont make the difference. They are however relevant, especially to the extent you are close to comparing apples to apples, and that is where similar competition and schedule is applicable.

    ramming speed to all

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  9. #39
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    I like Suh more, although I am starting to get worried with his lack of "moves". He will not be able to throw around Guards in the nfl like he did in college. ( well not all)

  10. #40
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    . Basically, stats is not the way you judge a player. .
    WHAT??? I don't even know what to say to this. Ok, maby stats isnt 100% how you judge a player but, it is a HUGE portion.

    Well, if your right, maby ill go walk on to some D2 college, work my way to D1 with terrible stats, then go pro right? If i dont have to have good stats I can do it...

  11. #41
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    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    And why is everyone so worried about his "lack of moves". If the coaching staff is really that worried about it, they will help him develop some i'm sure.

    There's always an antagonist in anything positive like getting Suh.

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